Hon. Senators, there are two statements that are due. We can start with the one by the Chairperson of the Committee on Finance, Commerce and Economic Affairs as directed yesterday. I see the Deputy Majority Leader is in the House. The Vice Chairperson of the Committee on Finance, Commerce and Economic Affairs is also in the House.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I managed to trace the Chairperson and he said that he would pass over the statement to the Vice Chairperson. Apparently, I have just walked in and the Vice Chairperson is seated right near me. Maybe I could start with the other statement as he prepares himself and also owing to the fact that Sen. Kembi-Gitura is also not in the House.

Sen. Keter, you can proceed. BUSINESS FOR THE WEEK COMMENCING TUESDAY, 30TH SEPTEMBER, 2014

Mr. Speaker, Sir, pursuant to the provisions of Standing Order No.45, I wish to give a statement on behalf of the Senate Majority Leader on the business of the Senate for the week commencing 30th September, 2014. Hon. Senators, the Rules and Business Committee will meet on Tuesday, 30th September, 2014, at 12 noon to schedule business of the Senate for the week. Subject to further directions by the Rules and Business Committee, the Senate will continue with the business that will not be concluded in today’s Order Paper, focusing on debate on Bills at the Second Reading. On Wednesday, 1st October, 2014, the Senate will continue with the business not concluded during Tuesday’s sitting and consider any other business scheduled by the The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Let us move to the next Statement since I see no interest in the statement by the Deputy Majority Leader. The Vice Chairperson, Committee on Finance, Commerce and Economic Affairs, you may now proceed. ESCALATING BANK INTEREST RATES

Mr. Speaker, Sir, regarding the issue of the statement on bank interest rates, we had responded to the statement on 14th July, 2014. After that, there were a lot of interventions on the statement. The person who had asked the statement--- The answer we got was not satisfactory even to the Committee. Up to now, the Committee is still trying to do its best to get in touch with the National Treasury so that we can conclude the issue and bring the answer to the Floor of this House. Mr. Speaker, Sir, we request for more time.

Sen. Kembi-Gitura.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, Sen. Mositet mentioned to me that he is not satisfied with the further answer. You will recall that this statement was delivered some time ago. The response was not even satisfactory to the Committee, so they asked for further information which they have. I also have a copy. Now that the Vice Chairperson says that the Committee is not satisfied with it, I will be quite happy if they can interrogate the Cabinet Secretary further so that we can get a proper answer. This is The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Chairman, Sir---

Order, Sen. Mositet!

Sorry for that, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I would like to request Sen. Kembi-Gitura to give us about two weeks. I believe within that period, we will have spoken to the National Treasury. If possible, we will sit with them and get the correct response.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, in fairness, it will be good to indulge the Committee so that they can get a full answer. One of the reasons I had raised this issue of escalating rates of interests is because you have heard Sen. Obure, Sen. (Prof.) Lesan, Sen. Okong’o and myself asking about the drop in the payment of tea. If you think about the increasing rates of interest and the falling payments from tea and these people are deducted money from the source, you find that a lot of Kenyans will go bankrupt this season because of the non-payment of the bonuses they were expecting, banks will deduct their money from source and children will not go to school. The issue of rising interest rates is a matter of national importance. Coupled with other economic factors in our country, you find that the impact is so big. We do not know when this will end. The reason I indulge my colleague is so that they should be given the opportunity to get to the bottom of the matter, understand the escalating interest rates and the impact they have on the economy particularly in the counties.

Let us have the statement in two weeks time, taking all that into account. Next Order!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to move the following Motion:- THAT, aware that the number of the teenage and pre-teen parents is increasing by the day; noting with concern that majority in this category are girls from poor households and that this problem compounds the vicious cycle of poverty in Kenya; recognizing the socio-economic challenges facing this special category of parents including lack of income and entrepreneurial capacity, inadequate parenting skills, low educational levels and lack of health care; appreciating that Article 45 (1) of the Constitution of Kenya recognizes the family as a fundamental unit of society that enjoys protection of the State; cognizant of the fact that the Government has a duty to cater for the youth and children of Kenya; the Senate urges the National Government and the county governments to:- (a) put in place mechanisms that will help establish a comprehensive capacity building programme for teenage parents to ensure they practice responsible family life; (b) come up with non-discriminatory back to school or training programmes and initiate necessary legal and policy framework that will identify persons within this group to benefit from the programmes; and (c) guarantee funding and sustainability of the initiative and other child welfare programmes aimed at benefiting teenage parents. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to present this very relevant Motion to this House today. I believe that we have all had occasion to witness or engage with pre-teen and teenage parents. In my own words, I call them babies. You go to a function and see a baby carrying another baby only to be told that the person you were thinking was a baby carrying another baby is actually the mother of that baby. This issue of babies with babies must be stopped. We must put in place policies that protect our babies and children from becoming parents at the ages of 11, 12 or 13. What do you call a 12 year old girl who has already had a baby? Is it not a baby with another baby? Mr. Speaker, Sir, let me share with you experiences that have really disturbed my conscience. I recently called for a youth meeting in Nairobi. According to the Constitution, the youth are those below the age of 35. In that room, a very interesting The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Problems!

This was my first experience with the young mothers of Kilifi County. The story again was the same; dropping out of school, having no other opportunity or engagement, being married off at an early age, ending up with six children at age 19 with no employment, with nothing and, so, the vicious cycle continues. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, as if that was not enough, in just about the same month, there was a funeral I attended in my other home county of Siaya. After that, I felt that we should initiate a programme for widows to support themselves. Again, the same scenario unfolded. I ended up with teenage widows. They were already married off, the husband has already died. She is 16, 17, or 19 with two, three or four children. So with all these examples from Siaya, Nairobi and Kilifi counties, to me, that is representative of what is happening in all other counties in this nation. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, this social ill of having in our midst babies with babies, is so prevalent, complex and it has far-reaching socio-economic implications that require a comprehensive and integrated approach; a realistic approach in terms of programmes and policies if, as a nation, we are to effectively deal with it. If we are to break this vicious cycle of poverty; if we are to put in place policies that are realistic and can be taken advantage of, we must give these girls – and I even feel sorry calling them girls – we must give these babies or these children an opportunity to go back to school while we also have policies and programmes that take care of the other younger babies that they have. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, may I take this opportunity to remind all of us of our very good Chapter 4 of the Bill of Rights of the Constitution of Kenya, Article 53. I want to take this opportunity to read it. It states:- “(1) Every child has the right – (a) to a name and nationality from birth; (b) to free and compulsory basic education; (c) to basic nutrition, shelter and health care; (d) to be protected from abuse, neglect, harmful cultural practices, all forms of violence, inhuman treatment and punishment, and hazardous or exploitative labour;” Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, This Motion talks directly to our conscience. We have to take care of our children. As a nation, we do not have to wait until somebody takes us to court because every child has rights. All these mothers within this age group still qualify to be referred to as children and as babies. It is our responsibility to create a scenario that is conducive for their going back to school. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, looking at the global situation, the UN report states that three out of 10 teenage girls will have fallen pregnant by the age of 18. Can you imagine that? We are told in that same report that worldwide, 7.3 percent births are by girls aged The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you, Senator. Who is seconding the Motion?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, this Motion will be seconded by the Senate Majority Leader. You can see the interest. Both the Senate Majority Leader, Prof. Kindiki and the Senate Majority Whip were on their feet.

You must decide who is seconding your Motion.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I am excited. The Senate Majority Leader, Prof. Kithure Kindiki, will second this Motion.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I rise to second this Motion. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, from the outset, I want to thank Sen. Ongoro for bringing this Motion that addresses a very important issue that is affecting our children and the future of our country. The only sure way of ensuring that Kenya remains a society that is thriving and full of ideas, innovative and progressive is to make sure that our children are safeguarded from harmful practices that can cut short their dreams and curtail their capacity to contribute to the national development, as educated and competitive adults. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, one of the challenges which this Motion addresses directly that is affecting our children is teenage pregnancies. Sometimes, these pregnancies affect even children who are not yet teenagers. It is that bad. I read somewhere in the newspapers a case of some girl somewhere of 11 years or thereabouts, getting pregnant. There is nothing as devastating as a pregnancy that has come too early. It has physical and biological effects. It disrupts a child’s emotional growth. For a very long time in our country, these pregnancies have shattered the educational aspirations of our children. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, as this Motion suggests, the majority of our children that are affected by this problem of early parenthood are girls. Not only are they girls, but they are girls from poor backgrounds. The reasons girls from poor backgrounds are more vulnerable than boys generally and girls from well-off families are mainly around poverty and lack of awareness, exposure and the naivety, which complicates and surrounds our children, especially in the not so well-to-do social setups, whether urban areas or even in the rural areas. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I also rise to thank Sen. Ongoro and also support this Motion knowing very well that for some years now, we have had challenges in terms of dealing with teenage pregnancies. Today, I want to bring to this House the issue of Chepkurkur Primary School in Mt. Elgon where last year, we saw 18 young girls get pregnant. These young girls were between the ages of 13 and 11 years. When you look at the research that was done, it is so shocking that today, we have different conceptions on how young people look at sex. The young people, especially in the rural areas have no one to turn to in order to get that awareness and education on how to manage themselves. When you read a paper on a research that was done by the Centre of the Study of Adolescents, it is a study that concerns us, one as parents and even as leaders of this country. We still have a misconception that today when you mix Coca Cola with some other concoctions and drink it, you cannot get pregnant. This is besides so many other conceptions. It is very sad when you listen to them. Some of those young girls had not received their first menstrual period and therefore they do not understand what pregnancy is. So, this Motion is seeking to find a way forward and bring in mechanisms to deal with culture. I know that within our cultures, there is also fear that when you are raped and you become pregnant, you are not supposed to humiliate your family by taking the case to court for a man who has refused to take responsibility. Parents also choose to keep quite. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, today, many parents fear to engage with their young ones in terms of giving them the knowledge on how a girl can manage herself during the rites of passage to another level. Most of the time, the young men are the ones who undergo rites of passage. After initiation, the young boys are told that they can now roam all over to prove that they are men. This is when they find themselves in all this mess. Nobody trains them to know that they can make young women pregnant and, therefore, leading to two babies having a baby. Today, in our country, we have 15 year old girls who are pregnant. We also have 25 to 29 year old mothers who are pregnant and 30 to 40 years old grandmothers who are also pregnant. This is an issue that must worry us. It is very unfortunate that most families which go through that life are always poor. At the moment, the Government is making interventions with regard to reproductive health and other health issues. Parliament is also playing its part and there are a lot of funds circulating. We now need to manage those funds properly. When we talk about youth and women funds, we should consider priority areas. This is money not The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me an opportunity to support this Motion which has been brought here by a mother, educationist and above all, a legislator. These kinds of Motions are long overdue considering the magnitude of cases affecting the young ones in the countryside. If a policy like this is effectively enacted by both the national and the county governments, the young mothers could also live productive lives. Some of them could also excel very well in the area of sports, especially athletics, if there was a policy to take care of their children who are a burden to them. This Motion complies with the constitutional requirement of education to our citizens. The Constitution of Kenya 2010 gave hope, aspirations and dreams to all Kenyans. That is why I support this Motion and encourage others to support it so that that our children who have children can also be part and parcel of our society. Three years ago, I watched a clip on television of a very visionary leader in the North Rift who had come up with a secondary school of young mothers. Subsequently, when the examination results were released, young mothers who had two or three children each scored a “B” plain. This Motion is in line with that. We need to engage the national and county governments to come up with mechanisms of caring for the young children – who are a burden - who have made the young mothers to become beggars. This has also made young mothers to engage in illicit sex so as to take care of their young children. As you move in the streets of Nairobi, Nakuru, Kisumu and Kisii, you will get astonished by these tragedies. Parents have failed. Schools have also failed to enact systems to arrest these kinds of unfortunate scenarios. It is important that the Government intervenes so that we move towards a direction where our young ones will be part and parcel of the development of our counties. The society, as it were in the times of our able Senator, Senator No.1, G.G. Kariuki, looked at these scenarios extensively. However, now that we have adopted capitalist ideologies, some matters have been left to individuals. During the earlier days of the 1960s and 1970s, there were systems of addressing these situations. However, now that we have moved to follow the Western culture, these are the calamities we are facing. Recently, I visited Kisumu and met a girl who got a child at 15. She came from a very poor background and was yearning to go to school. The girl is now 19 and can be The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Order, Senators. Before we proceed to the next speaker, I would like to take this opportunity to announce that in the gallery we have three schools namely: Kyumbi High School from Machakos County, Timbila High School from Taita Taveta and Kisii High School from Kisii County. I would be appreciative if you welcome them in our usual manner in the Senate. I hope that they are going to learn something from their visit to the Senate. Feel welcome.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, thank you very much for giving me this opportunity to make a few remarks on this very important Motion which has been brought by a Member of the Panel of Speaker, Sen. Ongoro. I listened to her and as far as analyzing the problem is concerned and as far as various statistics are concerned, they reflect the gravity of this problem. I have been very much concerned with the rights of children ever since I was appointed the Attorney-General. I remember my first taskforce which I appointed was to look into all the issues relating to children and make recommendations on the laws that should be put in place. One of the legislation that we put in place was the Children Act, which in effect was ratifying the United Nations Conventions on the Rights of the Child. I also want to inform you that---

Order, Sen. Wako. I can see that Sen. G.G. Kariuki has a point of order.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, this thing is not working.

What thing?

The machine. I hope you now have my name there? The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

I do not have it. I saw you trying to intervene by way of point of order.

I was trying to intervene to get my name there.

It is not here yet.

What do I do now?

Sen. Wako, you may proceed.

I hope that the two or three minutes that Senator number one has taken will not be counted against me. I want to take this opportunity to add a welcome to the students from the three high schools who are here today. I want to inform them that they have come at the right time when we are discussing a very important Motion relating to the rights of children. Children are defined as those who are under the age of 19 years. I want to believe that anybody in high school today is under 19 years old and therefore he or she is a child. Therefore, what we are discussing now is relevant to them. I hope that in their own debates, they will continue with the discussions on how the rights of children can best be protected in this country. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I was saying that I was involved in the drafting of the African Charter on Human and People’s Rights. I remember drafting sections in that Charter which relate to the rights of children. Due to that, I was also asked to draft the African Charter on the welfare and protection of children which again is now in force. When I became the Attorney-General, my first duty was to set up a task force on the rights of children which resulted in the Children Act. What we are discussing today is very important because under our Constitution, under the United Nations Charter for the rights of children, under the African Charter on Human and People’s Rights, under the African Charter on the Rights and Welfare of Children, one fundamental issue is recognized; that the family is the fundamental unit of any society. As has been said, it is also recognized under Article 45 of our constitution that the family is the natural and fundamental unit of society and the necessary basis of social order. What that means is that if there is an attack on the family, then it will ultimately affect the social order in any society. That will ultimately lead to the downfall of that society. That is why under our Constitution, it is provided that the family as a unit must be protected by the state. I am emphasizing this because the right to “found” a family is a right under our Constitution which is confined to an adult. An adult is one who is above 18 years of age. What I am trying to say is that a person who becomes a parent when under the age of 18 years remains a child under our laws. Therefore, that person remains under the protection of the state. The laws which relate to that protection must be implemented so long as somebody is under the age of 18 years. Some of these rights are elaborated in the Children Act. I can also pick two articles from our constitution: Article 53 provides for the right to free and compulsory basic education. Therefore, if somebody becomes a parent under the age of 18 years, that person must continue to have the basic education which will be useful to that person, to enable her play a useful role in the society. In that regard therefore, a person who becomes pregnant under the age of 18 years should not be The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Order, Senator! Your time is up.

Oh, my time is up?

Your time is up.

With those few remarks, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I beg to support.

Sen. Fatuma Dullo.

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. First, I would like to congratulate Sen. Elizabeth Ongoro for bringing this timely Motion. According to me, this Motion is long overdue because this is a big problem that we are facing in this country both at the urban and rural areas. First and foremost, I would like to say that there are so many children who are affected in our rural areas, and most of the time, you will find that the people who are responsible for fathering the babies from the babies are elderly people. In some instances, you will find that even parents or relatives are responsible for this kind of problems. So, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is really important, as my colleagues said, that we must have proper structures in place to make sure that those who are fathering those babies should be held responsible. The challenge we are facing in this country is both from the Judiciary and the police. When these matters are reported, the police do not take any action. Again, when it comes to maybe a relative or people who are known within the community, most of the time you will find that they run to courts and say that “can we settle this matter out of court” and yet the child whose rights have been violated is not represented at all in this matter. It is the community actually making a decision for her and yet she is the one whose rights have been violated. So, we must put a stop to this. I think in these instances, the buck stops with the relevant institutions that we have in this country; the police, the Judiciary, the communities and even the chiefs. I am sorry to say this; the chiefs are also partisan in this matter. So, we must crack the whip. Secondly, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, as a country, we must take up the responsibility of taking care of both children – in this instance they are both children. So, in areas, for example, where I come from, sometimes you will find that it is even hard to get children welfare centres where these children can be taken. So, I think it is important that this country comes up with a system where we establish child welfare centres for these babies and also for the children because if we do not have these centres, sometimes it is a big problem. Again, as the Mover of the Motion has said, we must be able to separate the children who are affected because of the peer pressure and again also the stigma that follows them. Sometimes you can ask a girl to go back to school and she says “I am scared of my friends.” So, for me, it is important if we build or devolve the rescue centres that we have in this country. For example, county governments have a lot of money; why can we not build rescue centres for such girls, which is really very important? The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you. Sen. Boy Juma Boy.

Asante sana, Bw. Naibu Spika. Kwanza ningependa kumsifu Sen. Ongoro kwa kuleta Hoja hii ambayo ni muhimu. Ukiangalia kwa undani, utaona kwamba Hoja hii ina mambo muhimu sana. Ina mambo yanayohusu watoto ambao wanakuwa wazazi wakiwa na umri mdogo. Hili ni tatizo ambalo sisi kama viongozi ni lazima tulivalie njuga. Lakini kwanza, tutafute sababu. Tukubaliane ya kwamba hivi sasa mazingira yamebadilika na sio yale ya zamani. Huu ndio ukweli wa maneno. Mfumo wa digital na dot-com unaleta haya. Hivi sasa kuna simu na mitandao. Wanafunzi wanafahamu kila jambo. Kuna kitu kinachoitwa Facebook. Pia kuna kitu kinaitwa WhatsApp . Haya ndio mambo ambayo yanaleta madhara haya. Maendeleo huja na madhara yake. Hapa kuna mambo mawili; kuna watoto wa shule kwa watoto wa shule. Hili ni jambo ambalo ni lazima tulikemee kabla ya kutafuta suluhisho. Pili, kuna watoto wa shule ambao wanapata uja uzito na akina baba, ilhali wanajua vizuri kwamba wale ni watoto wa shule. Kazi ya akina baba hawa ni kufuata watoto wa shule na kuwadanganya hapa na pale. Hii ni hatari. Siku hizi watoto wa miaka 12 wamenona na kujaza kila mahali. Utafikiri kwamba ni mtu wa miaka 20 kumbe ni mtoto. Hii ni kwa sababu ya kula vizuri. Ni lazima tuhakikishe kwamba akina baba kama wale hawaruhusiwi hata kidogo kucheza na watoto wa shule. Bw. Naibu Spika, pia tunafaa kukubaliana kwamba tabia za wazazi wengine sio nzuri. Wewe una mtoto wako lakini una mpenzi huyu, mara yule mwingine. Je, mtoto atafuata tabia gani? Ataona kwamba labda kuna mambo mazuri pale. Kwa hivyo, sisi wenyewe kama wazazi ni lazima tuzingatie mambo fulani. Tunajua kwamba maendeleo yana taabu. Tangu enzi ya televisheni kufika, wengine wetu tumeacha mila zetu za Kiafrika na kuwa kama wazungu. Hii imetuharibia. Wengine wetu tunavaa suti na kufunga tai kama wazungu wa London. Tunataka mambo ya kizungu. Kwa kuwacha mila zetu za Kiafrika, ule mwongozo wa zamani uliokuwa ukitumiwa kulea watoto umepotea. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. This Motion does not need a lot of time to explain its implications because all of us are aware of this problem. It is not a new problem and neither is it a new discovery. It is something that we all know is happening under our watch. This is one of the statements we should take very seriously because it is happening under our watch. We have heard a very good academic explanation from Sen. Wako. I listened to him very well. It was like we were in a classroom. I must say that he did a good job to explain to us how other nations have been dealing with this matter. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, for allowing me to support this good Motion from our hon. Senator. This is a very serious issue of children having babies. It is happening all over the country. I have just listened to the hon. Ongoro narrating what she sees whenever she goes home and at times when she visits counties like Kilifi. I was also expecting her to mention my county. It appears as if every county in this country has this problem. Thank you, Senator for this Motion. This is a big problem that this Senate should fix and ensure that we have responsible citizens in the country. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, one of the contributors of children bearing children is the Female Genital Mutilation (FGM). In pastoral areas, immediately children go through this, this almost becomes a certificate for girls to move around with men. Out of that, the results we get are children getting pregnant. After that, they drop out of school. Thereafter, you will find them in the situation that the Senator was explaining. I remember one time when we were making a joke out of some governors who had set aside some money to fight pornography. We said that such amounts of money should not be set aside for that. However, having heard what Sen. Boy Juma Boy was explaining, I was about to say that, probably, we need to allow some Governors some funds to fight some of the activities that have come about as a result of the information age.

The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Order, Sen. Amos Wako, Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr., and Sen. Abdirahman! You are allowed to consult, but in low tones so that we listen to our colleague.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. This Motion reminds us that we are not observing what is in the Constitution. In the Constitution, you find that the Government is supposed to be responsible and to make sure that it protects those kinds of children, but that is not happening. Time has come when we need to carry out a lot of civic education regarding those issues as provided for in the Constitution. We need to know our responsibilities and learn about the rights of our citizens so that they do not suffer. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, whenever I visit my county, one of the problems I encounter is that many of these children visit my office or home asking for assistance. I always go out of my way to assist them. I believe that all leaders equally face the same issues. This Motion comes at a time when we have resources going to our counties. Therefore, we should come up with institutions or tools to ensure that such children are rehabilitated or counselled so that eventually, they get the best education and help in building the economy of this country. With those few remarks, I support the Motion.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I rise to support this Motion which has been moved by Sen. Elizabeth Ongoro. This is a very important Motion as it touches on our children who are underage and who happen to get pregnant. Why do our children get pregnant when they are young? This could be because of the surrounding environment. This depends on how a child was raised. Some of them are from very poor backgrounds. Their parents are very poor. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I would like to register my voice in congratulating Sen. Ongoro for coming up with this Motion which is long overdue. For those of us who have been in the game of politics for quite some times now, you know we have been talking about these things. I am not like my good old friend Sen. G.G. Kariuki, but I have been there for about two decades now. What I have realized as a politician is that we must eradicate poverty. We must try and control the digital technology or the new technology we have these days. Those two things are the ones which spoil our children. Most of us in this House either have a daughter, a sister, a cousin, a relative or a community where all these sins are committed. In some communities, it is a taboo for a young girl of 10 years to 18 years to get pregnant. It is a shame. What can we do as leaders? That is why we should congratulate Sen. Ongoro for coming up with this Motion. We must come up strongly and urge our national Government and county governments to set up institutions and policies which will protect and also rehabilitate the young girls. When they become pregnant at that tender age, what will they do? When I talk about poverty, most of these young mothers are either selling chang’aa or charcoal to earn a living. That is why most of these young girls who come from poor backgrounds are victims of the problems facing the nation. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, HIV/AIDS is a national problem. Population increase is also a national problem. When we talk about population increase in our nation, we do not address the problem of teenage mothers. It is time to take this matter seriously because we are facing a time-bomb. When you walk down the streets, you will see very many children sitting beside their mothers and they are not going to school. What is the national Government doing and the county government of hon. Kidero doing? We still have street children. You will find one mother in a corner with ten children and you do not know where they come from. This is a problem caused by men. There are sugar or honey daddies. We must bring them to book as one Senator has said. Mr. Temporary Deputy Speaker, Sir, the other day when I was in my county, an old man whispered to me that a leader had impregnated four girls from a certain school. What a shame! We must bring those men to book. The other issue as one of my The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you very much, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, for giving me this chance to comment on this Motion. I wish to state that I do support it. Probably the reason I am calling it a Bill is because I wanted to assure my sister, Sen. Ongoro, that there is actually a Bill on the Order Paper which will help implement some of these wonderful ideas that she has; it will help the young persons, especially from adolescence. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, what this states or emphasizes is that there is a group in our community called the young persons, which we have to deal with cautiously. Their needs are so special. We have discovered that unless we give special, careful, keen and detailed attention to them, we shall lose them. We shall lose them in very many ways as we sit, observe and watch. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I, therefore, wish to state that these young persons have various challenges. They live within our midst. As adults, we have done our best to protect them as parents. We have done our best as Church leaders, the State or any other stakeholder. However, the best is not good enough because they still need more attention, involvement or intervention. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, when we say that we need to come up with clear policies and guidelines to take care of our young persons, it means that even though we have enacted several laws---. Section 4 of the Children Act says that the State has the powers and the best interest of the child shall be paramount. We have Article 53 of the Constitution which is on the rights of the children. It says they have the right to the care The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Asante, Bw. Spika wa Muda kwa kunipatia nafasi hii kuchangia Hoja hii. Bw. Spika wa Muda, kwanza nampa hongera dada yetu, Sen. Elizabeth Ongoro, kwa kuleta Hoja hii. Jambo la kwanza la kuzingatia kama Wakenya ni kwamba familia ni msingi mkubwa sana wa maendeleo. Biblia inasema kwamba familia inayoomba pamoja inaishi vyema kwa muda mrefu. Ukiwa na familia ni lazima uwaelimishe watoto wako kama kiongozi ama mama wa familia. Bw. Spika wa Muda, naunga mkono Hoja hii kwa sababu wengi wa vijana wetu hivi sasa katika sehemu mbalimbali, hasa Kilifi kule ninatoka wameingilia mambo ya mihadarati. Watu wanapitia njia za vichochoro vya nchi kavu au kando kando ya bahari na kuleta mihadarati mbalimbali. Mihadarati hii inaleta madhara makubwa kwa watoto wetu. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity so that I can contribute to this Motion. I would like to congratulate and commend my sister, Sen. Ongoro, for bringing a Motion that really touches on the very core of the family. These are our children and it is said that one in every three households is faced with problems and issues of pre-teen and teenage pregnancies. This has arisen because the social norms of our society have now been eroded. African traditions and customs are no longer being followed. If you go back to the rural areas, especially in the villages, you will find that we do not even have elders. What we used to call the elders are now the young boys and girls. When you come to the clergy, the churches that used to give us moral guidance are no longer doing so. Last night, I was ashamed to see on national television a pastor being arrested after being caught with his neighbour’s best friend. We have not forgotten the other incident involving pastors who were caught in sexual acts somewhere in Nyeri. This is very shameful. These are the very people who are supposed to help our children to come up with good morals and educate them on how they can live a good life; a life that can bring some results to them. You will find that for the very first time in our country we are faced with another social ill that was supposed to be good technology. This is the social media. The Senator for Kwale, Sen. Boy Juma Boy spoke very well. I want to commend him for saying that

, WhatsApp, et cetera are ills on the social media. They are taking our children to the wrong direction. In fact, they are draining them. If you go through Facebook you will find that out of say, ten stories that are being circulated on Facebook, one is on explicit sex. You are being shown pictures of naked girls and even explicit pictures of how to perform. Social media is ruining our children in this country. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I do not know why the Government cannot regulate content in the social media. In other countries, for example, the Arab speaking countries, the content in the social media is always regulated. This is also happening in China. I do not see anything wrong for us in the African context, that we cannot regulate social media in this country. When it comes to the electronic media, especially the television, there are Mexican soap operas like “ No One But You ”, the Rich Also Cry ” and “ the LaTempestad ”. These are not programmes that you can sit with your children and watch. I am wondering why the people who are responsible in Government allow such content. I do recall that in the 1970s, the kind of content that we used to see on national television was content that you could sit and watch with your children. This is how our teenagers are being encouraged to try and behave like those girls they are watching in the soap operas; maybe they will get boyfriends. This is something that needs to be seriously addressed in our country. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

.: Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I rise to support this Motion with reservations, but say that it is timely. My reservations are as follows: The definition given to a child under the law is a person below the age of 18 years. This Motion quotes Article 45 (1) as the basis on which it should be recognized. Article 45 (1) provides that the family is the natural and fundamental unit of society and the necessary basis for social order. However, this law did not intent this family to be made up of children below the age of 18 years. While I support the Motion, I am a little cautious that we do not recognize teen- hood families as a basis for giving them protection. I propose that the category that is suggested by Sen. Ongoro should be a proviso so that we do not create for ourselves as legislators, an avenue for two teenagers to begin a family under Article 45(1) because we have given them protection. This issue is, in fact, a problem that we must address a little more seriously. These young girls in my county are the ones who are entertaining the truck drivers who come from Mombasa the whole night. These truck drivers are the ones that lead these girls into various destinations of this Republic and outside the country. The result is that in every town along Mombasa Road, you will find teenagers who have families. It also means, and by extension, that the phenomenon of HIV/AIDS along Mombasa Road is real. It is also a problem in Makueni County. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, while we are attempting to assist this category of people, we must, in fact, try to condemn the act of teenagers purporting to be leaders of families. This is becoming a problem. I wonder why people who are technologically advanced have not found a method of tracking our children when they are out at night. There must be a way that parents can have a peaceful night on weekends when their children leave home. It has become a trend for parents to go home and for their children to leave in the evenings to have a good time. It has also become a phenomenon that parents are now The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

It was an uncle!

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, these are the exceptions we should allow for people to be recognized and to be offered welfare. However, other than that, we should provide, as Sen. Ongoro has stated, an opportunity for them to go back to school because that would make them understand that starting a family before getting to the age of 18 or 20 should not be condoned in this Republic.

What is it Sen. Khalwale? We moved from the analogue to the digital system. I saw you making gestures, but I cannot see any request on my screen. However, I will allow you because you must be undergoing some struggle.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I did not want to interrupt Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. who has made very important assertions. However, it is wrong for him to---

Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, you are now speaking like Sen. Mong’are Okong’o.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, he has made very important assertions that it is wrong for children to be parents and we agree with that. However, he has gone further and said that it is wrong for children to become grandparents. Could he substantiate what he meant by saying that children can become grandparents?

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker for calling me Sen. Philomena, the other name that I do not use and letting everybody know that is my name as well. Thank you, Sen. Ongoro. This is such a sad Motion. I am happy that it has come to this House at this time because we need to protect our children. There have been many stories in the media and people talking. This is happening every single day. The same phenomenon happens over and over again. It was a shock for this country when a ten year old girl gave birth at the Kenyatta National Hospital (KNH). We are looking at a situation where a child gives birth to another child. The issue of pre-teen and teenage pregnancy has become more and more rampant as days go by and you might think there must be something wrong somewhere. Is it about sexual reproduction education that is not being received, well articulated and processed? What is really happening? The first thing that comes to my mind is where are these men because it must be men? These girls are getting pregnant by men. The question is: Are they getting pregnant by their boyfriends, relatives, their fathers or grandfathers? The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Your time is up!

Thank you very much, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, for giving me the opportunity to support this Motion. First, I want to start by thanking and congratulating Sen. Ongoro for bringing this Motion up and for highlighting the The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Sen. Obure, your time is up!

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I beg to support.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I rise to support this Motion by Sen. Ongoro on the worrying trend of teenage pregnancies, more so, considering that the problem is here with us. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, when we try to do something concerning teenage pregnancies, for example, by providing condoms in schools and introducing sex education, some people shiver and start murmuring and whispering. We shy away yet this is a problem here with us. We live in a society where a 13 or 14 year old already knows about sex. This is because of the way the world has exposed them to it. It is not anybody’s problem in particular, but because of the way that the world has grown. The world is bound to grow and life will go on. This Motion is asking us to do something about it. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I like particularly the fact that this Motion is asking us to put in place a programme for teenage parents, to ensure that they practice responsible family life. This means that we can arm these children with information. We can do capacity building for teenagers. When we arm them with information, they will know what to do when they are in a situation where sexual intercourse is involved. They will know when to have and not have sex and what to do. They will be armed with information. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Sen. Musila, you have two minutes from Sen. Gwendo.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. Two minutes will be too short for me, but I will try. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, first, I want to congratulate Sen. Ongoro for bringing this Motion. I rushed to this Chamber when I realized that it seemed like ladies were fighting for this, whereas, just as the good Senator has just said, this is a matter of two people. So, we rushed in here to come and tell our sisters that we are together in this issue. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, we must start by recognizing where the rain started beating us. It started beating us due to moral decay. I was watching news last night where a pastor was caught red-handed with a wife of one of his worshippers. When he was asked to explain, he said that she had asked him to go and pray for her; prayers in a hotel while naked. We have not been role models to the youth. Only a few weeks ago we were treated to the Machakos Sevens Rugby. We saw things that we could not have imagined that our youth could be involved in. We are to blame for the irresponsible behaviour of the society. I want to congratulate the Non-Governmental Organizations (NGOs) who have worked very hard to rescue children who are being married off early. I saw one of them graduating the other day. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, but most important is poverty. Our living conditions are such that children start seeing their parents having sex very early. Therefore, they try to copy them. There is no privacy. There is also the issue of drugs, alcohol and so on.

Order! Your time is up!

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I beg to support. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Sen. Musila, just for your information, we did not deny you time. It is a timed Motion and its time has come to an end. So, it is now time for the Mover to reply. You have ten minutes.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I would like to donate two minutes of my time to Sen. Lesuuda, two minutes to Sen. Martha, two minutes to Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale and then I will reply.

Thank you very much, Sen. Ongoro, for donating the two minutes. Due to the limited time, I will go straight to some of the points that I have. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, one of them is just to agree with Sen. Musila who said that as a society and a people, we need to ask ourselves where the rain started beating us. How then do we correct the issues that affect us? We also have to target the boys, so that as we talk to the girls, we also talk to our boys. How do we bring up our boys in our society to respect and protect their sisters? In the past, boys used to protect the girls not because they were weaker, but vulnerable. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, as my other colleagues have mentioned, there is the issue of poverty. When most of our girls are sent home for lack of school fees, they stay there for four weeks or even a month. What do you expect them to be doing during that time? I think it is important that we also talk to our schools and see how we can manage those girls in our schools, so that they are not exposed. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, there are very many complications that come with teenage pregnancy. There are issues to do with fistula. Also, the children who are born will most of the time be malnourished. So, we will have an unhealthy society. We will need to cater for their health in addition to dealing with these teenage pregnancies. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, even in our urban areas and cities, it is so unfortunate that when you go to some places to have lunch, you will meet our young girls and boys whenever on midterm or holiday break. You cannot even sit there because you feel so embarrassed. It is a shame that there are people in this country who sell alcohol to teenagers, which, of course, is a catalyst that leads these young people to engage in sex. We are selling alcohol to teenagers under 18 years old just for the money. This is something that we, as parents and even people who have children, should be ashamed of. Finally, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, it is important that we also promote---

Your time it up!

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I want to thank the Mover of the Motion for giving me two minutes and also congratulate her for bringing this timely Motion here. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, in an ideal situation, we should not be talking about children having children, but today we are in a world where this is happening. In fact, in the recent statistics, out of the new HIV/AIDS infections, a third of them are of people aged 14 to 24 years. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, we, as a country, are dealing with a big crisis. I know a lot has been put in place in terms of preventive measures by mainstreaming sex education in the schools, but I think the Children Act and the Sexual Offences Act, 2006, The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Sen. Wangari, your time is up!

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, as an expert in this area, I can strongly confirm to you that out of 1,000 pregnancies in this country, 103 are by children aged between 12 and 15 years. The good news is that the causes are such that there is something we can do about it. Therefore, I want to congratulate the Mover of the Motion and urge her to go beyond the Motion and come up with a Bill and, probably, call it the Teenage Mothers Support Bill which will become an Act of Parliament. That Bill will address all the cases and solve them. First, this problem of teenage pregnancies is caused by peer group pressure, rape, cultural practices, broken families, poverty, lack of sexual awareness, alcohol and drug abuse. All these things; we can do something about them. Because this is so important, as an expert again, let me bring to your attention the fact that this situation impacts so seriously on a youth to the extent that of all these mothers, you find that they are depressed, left in isolation or stigmatized. Some of them even die. The appalling thing about the deaths is that up to 70,000 mothers who are teenagers die in developing countries every day.

It is now time for the Mover to reply.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I want to take this opportunity to thank all the Senators who contributed very ably to this Motion and who have supported it. Even as we support, we must consider the views that have been raised by Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jnr. I want to agree with him in totality. But maybe to take him back to the Motion, if you read the Motion, I am actually agreeing with him that the basis for recognizing the family should be as contained in Article 45. That being the case, the reality out there is different and this Motion simply states that even though the scenario we wanted was contained in Article 45 where only those who have the capacity to raise families will have children, however, that is not the scenario obtaining out there. Therefore as a nation we have the responsibility to take care of these children who go against the spirit of Article 45 as contained in the Constitution to start their own families. That is the spirit of this Motion. However, even as we support, let us also go by what Sen. Boy Juma Boy and Sen. Ong’era brought to our attention, but we also have to put a check to the levels of The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Next Order!

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I beg to move that the County Assemblies Powers and Privileges Bill, Senate Bill No.11 of 2014, be read a Second Time. Article 196(3) of the Constitution says that Parliament shall enact legislation providing for the powers, privileges and immunities of county assemblies together with those of their committees and members of those county assemblies. I note with concern that this legislation is supposed to have been enacted three years from the date within The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale.

On a point of order Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, as our leader of Government Business in this House, could the Majority Leader substantiate how he reconciles the lack of a designated place for picketing in this Senate with the one that he is advocating for in the county assemblies? Could you reconcile the two?

Sen. Murkomen

Sen.(Prof.) Kindiki): Mr. Temporary Speaker,Sir, I agree with Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale that up to now, even for us in the national Parliament, we are operating under a very old law called National Assembly Immunities and Privileges Act, Cap. 6. This does not even talk about the Senate. We are in the process of introducing before this House a bill as soon as it is ready, a Parliamentary Immunities and Privileges Act that will take care of both the Senate and the National Assembly. It will also take care of the modern realization, under the new Constitution especially, that it is the right of the public to express their views about their leaders. Therefore, a similar provision in the proposed Bill has been included to make sure that Kenyans, as much as they want to express themselves, they do not interfere with the rights of other people. They should also not do despicable things, some of which actually include cruelty to animals. There is a law in this country; what is called the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act which says that if you have to slaughter an animal, you must do it in certain conditions and for certain purposes. You cannot just carry an innocent pig to the middle of the road when vehicles are passing, slaughter it there and you are not even eating that pig; you just want to express yourself. We have taken that on board. Our people must know that you can express yourself without doing despicable things. You do not have to break gates, shoot people or shout yourself hoarse. Demonstration and picketing is a worldwide issue. I have been to some places where people are picketing just outside the British Parliament. This was a small group of people; they had their posters which spoke for themselves and they were dignified. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, in this country, it has become very bad, especially for us, leaders, who are being attacked while presiding over functions in the country side. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

(Sen. Murkomen)

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, thank you for the indulgence. Whereas we are very sorry for what happened to the Member of Parliament (MP), where he was almost killed by that man who was holding a machete, could the Senate Majority Leader tell us what the Government is doing about a group of leaders belonging to the ruling coalition who led people in Nandi to attack and actually physically injure the proponents of the referendum? This is a very serious matter. Or is it only bad when it is the Government people who are being attacked? In this case, it was the opposition which was being attacked in Nandi. Could he substantiate?

(Sen. Murkomen)

(Sen. (Prof) Kindiki): Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, thank you for protecting me from Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, who is notorious for using every opportunity to bash and perpetuate the Okoa Kenya ideology, everywhere, anywhere, anyhow. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the freedom of debate ---

Sen. Musila.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I am not challenging your ruling, but it is not irrelevant. The Mover of the Bill made a very relevant reference to the issue at hand. The subject is tolerance. He even referred to leaders who do not tolerate the views of others, like it happened in Narok, where the Governor of Bomet was told: “ Pesa sio yamama yako au baba yako.” That is the kind of tolerance that he is very ably articulating. Therefore, would I be in order to ask the Mover to tell us why this is happening under his watch as the Leader of the Majority?

Order, Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki. I have not given you the Floor. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

On a point of information, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir.

, (Sen. Murkomen): Do you want to be informed, Sen. Kindiki?

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, this is one of those rare moments where I would be interested to be informed by Sen. Boni Khalwale.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I want to remove my hat for the Senate Majority Leader for accepting information from a humble bullfighter. Kenyans speaking to us are shocked because they are waiting to see the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) or the Government say or do something about the violence that was meted against the proponents of the referendum in Nandi, and nothing has happened. Kenyans are similarly appalled that nothing has happened to the Leader of the Majority in the National Assembly for what he visited upon the Chairman of Council of Governors. That is the information I am giving, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir.

(Sen. Murkomen); Order! Sen. Khalwale, is that a point of information? You have not informed the Senate Majority Leader at all.

Mr. Speaker Sir, the information I am then giving him is that his Government is truly committed to being intolerant---

Order, Sen. Khalwale! What information do you want to give the Senate Majority Leader in furtherance of the Motion he was moving? Sen. Khalwale, resume your seat first.

You know very well what a point of information is. It is to add to information that is not in the knowledge of the Senate Majority Leader. I do not think that the events that occurred in Machakos, Makueni or Kapsabet-Nandi are not in the knowledge of the Senate Majority Leader, but if you have another angle of the same information that you thought would assist in his debate, you just inform him. Do not engage in a debate. This Bill is here and you will have the time to share what you want to share, even if you want to traverse a little bit but within the contents of the Bill.

Mr. Temporary Speaker Sir, I am, therefore, informing him that you should not be economical when you are speaking to the issue of intolerance, by avoiding the atrocities that are being perpetuated by high-placed officials of the Jubilee The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Order! Resume your seat.

) You are not helping yourself at all. You are traversing a different terrain. If you have issues, you can come with a proper Motion on those issues. Sen. Kindiki may now proceed, because chances are that someone would have asked you to substantiate all that you are saying. The Director of Public Prosecution is not an official of Jubilee Government, but an independent office.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, just to highlight quickly some of the remaining provisions, the freedom of debate is provided for, and their shall be no civil or criminal process against a Member of a County Assembly for matters said in debate, petitions or other proceedings of the County Assembly. In other words, sections 8 and 11, a civil or a criminal suit cannot be brought against MCAs for expressing themselves. Another important provision is Section 10. I saw that there was a lot of debate even in the media about it. I expect through debate in this House, we will be able to reach an appropriate consensus. Section 10 speaks to proceedings in an assembly. This includes the committees of this assembly, not being questioned in any court. This is a tradition the world over, and to support this immunity of parliamentary proceedings being privileged, a number of other provisions have been included; including that no civil suit may be instituted against the Speaker, the Leader of Majority, Leader of Minority or a Chairperson of a committee for acts done in performance of their functions. To paraphrase, ‘no civil suit can be brought against Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale when he is performing the functions of chairman of the County Public Accounts and Investments Committee of the Senate of the Republic of Kenya. There is immunity from all manner of suits. No arrests may be made. This has been there even in the old law; there can be no arrest of a Member of a County Assembly while going to, attending or returning from a sitting or a committee of the county assembly. Along those lines is Section 13; that no staff member of the county assembly shall be compelled to give evidence, to produce minutes that have been taken or any document that has been tabled before a county assembly unless with the permission of the county assembly. In fact, this proviso is so strong that it only allows the permission of the Assembly, not that of the Speaker. Any document that has been tabled before the House, or minutes which have been written in a Kamukunji or in a committee cannot be produced in court, unless the county assembly approves. Sections 14 and 15 talk about the breach of privileges. If a Member breaches the privileges of the House, there is established under Section 14, a committee of powers and privileges which shall investigate the alleged breach and mete out the necessary punishment which includes a formal warning to the Member who has breached the The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I rise to second that the County Assemblies Powers and Privileges Bill, 2014, be read a Second Time. I will be very brief because this is a very important Bill. I do not see any strong areas of contention. However, I would like just to point out a few things: Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the first thing I want to point out is about Clause 4 which reads:- “An officer of a National Security Organ may, with the permission and authority of the Speaker; (a) Enter upon or remain in the precincts of a County Assembly for the purpose of performing any function of that National Security Organ.” Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, we have to think about it carefully because we want to be sure that Members of the County Aassemblies are not harassed by members of the national security organs by way of arrests and carrying out vendetta. In some occasions, we might have Members of County Assemblies, (MCAs) who will say bad things about big people in Nairobi. We would like you to think about that. This is not just theory; I know an MCA in Busia who has been arraigned in court for criticizing the President. These things are real. Therefore, I would urge that we think about these things. If I may quote Sen. Wetangula, who likes quoting the retired Justice Ringera. Justice Ringera said that the best way to test a good law is if that law was to be used against you. Today, we are big people in Nairobi; we might retire as MCAs in Kakamega. We want to be sure that we leave good laws in Nairobi. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the second issue in the Bill is Clause 8. This is about the freedom of speech and debate and it reads:- “No civil or criminal proceedings may be instituted in any court or tribunal against a Member of a County Assembly by reason of any matter said in any debate, petition, Motion or other proceeding of the County Assembly.” Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I would like us to remember that Members also say such things not just in the Plenary, but also in Committees. I will give you an actual example of hon. Eric Sungu, who was my colleague in the other Parliament. He led us in a Committee that was investigating the death of Dr. Robert Ouko. While seated in the Committee and as a chair, he made certain remarks. Then, a lawyer, a very senior counsel in this country whose name I do not want to mention because he is in the habit of suing people, I do not know whether I am protected now, he approached the High Court and won the case. Now, Hon. Eric Sungu has been running all over the place since. He is not The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I am rising on a much unrelated point of order and I am sorry for doing that to my senior. There is a clock showing 06.28 p.m. and we have these smart phones which read time automatically; and they are showing 06.32 p.m. Therefore, as a Senate, we need to synchronize them.

(Sen. Murkomen)

Thank you. In that rally, there is a leader in this Republic who is fighting for his life in hospital. The rally was attended by a Senator and Members of Parliament who said that they could not allow that man to keep on supporting something which is not supported by the Deputy President. This country is waiting for the Deputy President to take the earliest opportunity to offer an apology and clear the air that these people were not acting at his behest. These are very serious matters unless we are tolerating impunity and that some people are above the law---. Nobody is above the law. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

(Sen. Murkomen)

(Sen. Murkomen)