Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to lay the following Paper on the Table:- The Report of the Standing Committee on Labour and Social Welfare on the National Honours (Amendment) Bill, 2014

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to give notice of the following Motion:- THAT, aware that the county transport is one of the devolved functions under the Fourth Schedule to the Constitution; noting that Article 54(1)(c) of the Constitution entitles persons with disability to reasonable access to all places, public transport and information; further aware that under Articles 27(1) of the Constitution, every person is equal before the law and has the right to equal protection and equal benefits of the law; concerned that people with disability continue to be discriminated against in the construction of foot bridges across the country; noting that if the situation is not urgently remedied, the lives of people with disabilities who cannot cross roads without assistance will continue to be in danger, the Senate urges all the county governments to construct wheelchair accessible foot bridges or foot paths on major county roads for use by people with disability. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

Order, Senators! Before we proceed to the next Order, let me make a communication. The World Future Council (WFC) with the support of the Parliament of Kenya and particularly the Senate Standing Committee on Land and Natural Resources, the FAO regional office in Africa, the Greenbelt Movement and the Global Legislators Organisation; Global International, in collaboration with the Ministry of Environment, Water and Natural Resources, has organized for the third inter-parliamentary regional hearings on exemplary forest policies in Africa scheduled to take place in Nairobi today. The WFC is a foundation based in Hamburg, Germany, which identifies and promotes solutions for the challenges of our time. Their mission is to inform policy makers and opinion leaders about the challenges facing future generations, to provide practical policy solutions and to facilitate dialogue on how to implement the same. In 2012, the WFC conducted an inter-parliamentary hearing in Kigali, Rwanda, with the support of the Rwanda Ministry of Natural Resources, the Rwanda Natural Resources Authority, the Rwanda Environment Management Authority, the United Nations Forum on forests, the FAO and Globe International. At the hearing, parliamentarians, policy makers and experts from Burundi, Cameroun, Ghana, Kenya, Malawi, Rwanda, South Africa, Tanzania, Uganda and Zambia made a commitment to take back to their countries these ideas, policies and successful experiences in order to gain support for the implementation as declared in the Kigali Declaration. At the WFC meeting, 2013, inter-parliamentary hearing on forests for people in Dar es Salaam, 35 legislators, policy makers and experts from Ghana, Kenya, Malawi, Rwanda, South Africa, Tanzania, Uganda, Zambia and Zimbabwe committed to engage themselves for exemplary forest policy. The hearing was opened by Tanzania’s Vice- President His Excellency Dr. Mohamed Gharib Bilal and our delegation from Kenya was led by Sen. Isaac Melly, Sen. Liza Chelule and Sen. Naisula Lesuuda. The 2013 inter-parliamentary hearing focused on regional and national laws that deliver significant improvements to forests and to people who depend on them. The 2014 inter-parliamentary hearing which is scheduled to be held in Nairobi between 30th September, 2014, that is today, and the 3rd of October, 2014, the WFC has invited approximately 50 parliamentarians and government representatives from Central and the East African Region. The objectives of the hearing for the Nairobi meeting include the following:- (i) to offer parliamentarians first hand information and to allow for a mutual exchange of interesting initiatives which have been proved effective in their countries and could be replicated elsewhere; (ii) to provide a platform for decision-makers and practitioners from Central and East African countries to exchange experiences and solutions on sustainable forest management, wood fuels and forest governance; The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to seek a Statement from the Chairperson of the Sessional Committee on Devolved Government concerning the need or failure by officials of various county governments to observe laid down government regulations regarding use of government vehicles. The Chairperson should explain:- (i) Why regulations requiring that Government vehicles be parked in the nearest police station from 6.00 p.m. to 6.00 a.m. are not being adhered to. (ii) Why some county government vehicles are being used for purposes other than what they are authorized to be used for and why many of them are being parked near bars and other inappropriate places. (iii) What action will be taken to punish officials who flout the said regulations and ensure that the regulations are adhered to. NEED FOR LONG-TERM MEASURES TO STAMP OUT CATTLE-RUSTLING IN WEST POKOT AND TURKANA Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to seek a Statement from the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on National Security and Foreign Relations concerning the need for long-term measures to stamp out cattle rustling in West Pokot and Turkana County borders, especially along the Turkwel-Kainuk junction and other neighbouring counties as well. In the Statement, the Chairperson should explain why the national Government has not established a General Service Unit (GSU) camp or an Anti-Stock Theft police unit camp at Parkayo junction along the border of West Pokot and Turkana County, despite a promise to do so more than 10 years ago. Secondly, considering the constant instances of loss of human life and livestock in this area, could the Chairperson state when the national Government will establish the said camps and when they will eradicate this menace?

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I did not want to interrupt, but the first Statement sought by Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo has got very serious The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to seek a statement from the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget. In the statement, I would wish the Chairperson to explain to the Senate how many counties have complied with the Integrated Financial Management System (IFMS) system of accounting and state what measures the governors have taken to ensure local revenue is collected as per the law and also showcase what projects the resources are funding. CHANGE OF THE ORIGINAL DESIGN FOR THE SOUTHERN BY-PASS AT KIKUYU TOWN

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise under Standing Order No.45(2)(b) to seek a statement from the Chairperson of the Committee on Roads and Transportation regarding the southern-bypass link to Kikuyu Town. In the statement, I would like the Chairperson to address the following issues:- (i) whether he is aware of the change of the original design of the by-pass at the Kikuyu town stretch by the current contractor thereby blocking the original entry lane into Kikuyu Town centre that was there in the old Kawangware-Dagoretti-Kikuyu Road; (ii) whether he is aware of the complains raised by the business community, residents and other stakeholders about the negative impact the above will have on businesses and industries within Kikuyu; (iii) whether he is aware of the aforesaid change of design which was done in March, 2014 without the knowledge, involvement and participation of key stakeholders who came to learn about it the other day when excavators started work at the site; (iv) what the Ministry of Transport and Infrastructure is doing about this issue considering that the stakeholders had lodged a complaint with the Kenya National Highways Authority (KeNHA) two weeks ago, to which no response has been given despite the fact that construction is still going on unabated; (v) whether the Committee on Roads and Transportation will consider paying an urgent visit to Kikuyu Town to see for itself what the situation on the ground is like, considering that the construction is in progress and the negative impact on businesses in the town is huge and irreversible. The residents of this town will also lose on the expected economic benefits of such an important by-pass road if the status quo is maintained.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

Order, Senators! Maybe the Chairpersons thought they have got away. We are still remembering you. Let us start with Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo’s Statement. Where are the Chairpersons for various committees? Where is the Chairperson for National Security and Foreign Relations Committee? Then Chair, Sessional Committee on Devolved Government, both from Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo. The one from Sen. Elachi goes to the Chairperson, Standing Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget; then the one sought by Sen. Wamatangi is for the Chairperson, Committee on Roads and Transportation.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to also seek something along the line of Sen. Elachi.

Proceed.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, with your permission, I am requesting that when the statement comes, it should also include county assemblies because he has asked about the executive. This is so because it appears that in some counties, the executive has been covered and not the county assemblies. Thank you.

(Hon. Ethuro)

Mr. Speaker, Sir, if I heard Sen. Wamatangi correctly, he says we need to go to the ground and ascertain or evaluate the situation. I think we can do it within two weeks. He is a member of our committee. I am sure he will facilitate that and we can report back to the Senate after two weeks. We are also meeting the Cabinet Secretary, Ministry of Transport and Infrastructure. We did not succeed last time, but we are going to do so this week. I am sure that we will get all the response within two weeks.

(Hon. Ethuro)

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

What is it, Sen. Wamatangi?

On a point of order. Mr. Speaker, Sir, in view of the fact that there is a real danger because the construction is going on right now in Kikuyu Town and given that this road will pass there within less than a week and the losses may be irreversible, would I be in order to plead with this House and the Committee to try and expedite this much more urgently?

(Hon. Ethuro)

Mr. Speaker, Sir, in as much as I have said that within two weeks, it does not necessarily mean that we will wait for two weeks. We can facilitate even earlier than that. We can be practical. We need to---

(Hon. Ethuro)

Latest, Tuesday, next week.

On a point of order on the same issue, Mr. Speaker, Sir. We have received letters from your office, inviting us to a meeting with the Cabinet Secretary, Ministry of Transport and Infrastructure, tomorrow at 10.00 a.m. Maybe for The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

(Hon. Ethuro)

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I inquired about the statements that were due this morning from the clerk of our committee. He told me that there were about three statements that were ready. He told me that he was going to give them to the Chairperson to issue them this afternoon. I do not know whether that happened. I would request that we are given some time, probably, on Thursday we can---

(Hon. Ethuro)

Can we do it in one week, Mr. Speaker, Sir, if that is okay with, Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo.

(Hon. Ethuro)

Mr. Speaker, Sir, on behalf of the Chairperson, I request that the House gives us two weeks to research and come up with the statement.

(Hon. Ethuro)

Mr. Speaker, Sir, on behalf of the Chairperson, I would like to ask the House that we give our report after two weeks.

(Hon. Ethuro)

(Hon. Ethuro)

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Yes, Sen. Elachi.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I just want to urge the Senate, knowing very well that we are serious in our business and in what we do for the country, I hope that the attendance will be full so that the Cabinet Secretary does not come and find only five of us as we normally are. I urge this House to come up as the Upper House and ensure that we have a quorum.

Order, Sen. Elachi. I thought you were the Senate Majority Whip? That is your job.

Proceed Sen. Kivuti. INTENDED ALLOCATION OF LAND AT KANYANYOONI IN KITUI COUNTY

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I am supposed to give a statement on the proposed allocation of land at Kanyanyooni in Kitui County to the National Intelligence Service (NIS). I do not know whether you want me to proceed given the fact that the Senator for Kitui County is not here. That notwithstanding, we had a Committee meeting on this matter and felt that there is need to give a chance to the Senator and the Governor of Kitui County to present their case to the Committee, although we did some The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

It is so ordered. Report on Tuesday and have a meeting as you have proposed on Thursday. Next order!

What is it Sen. Elachi.

On a point of order Mr. Speaker, Sir, I stand to be guided. I know that we had finished debate on this Bill. However, I wish to defer the division to a date that will be appropriate so that even the Mover of the Bill can reorganise himself.

What is it, Sen. Wako?

On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I am a bit surprised that this matter is on the Order Paper for the Second Reading. You will recall that on Thursday, I moved that this particular Bill be discussed because I knew it would last for a very short time. Indeed, my prophecy proved true as we finished the Second Reading. When it came to the issue of the vote, I stood up to ask that the vote be taken at another time because we did not have a quorum as at that time. By then, the Deputy Speaker, who was on the Chair, ruled that this was not a Bill affecting counties and, therefore, we should just pass it. He then called those for it to say “aye” and those against to say “nay”. We said “aye” and I assumed that we had already passed the Bill. So, I am bit surprised that it has been listed again. If you check the records, you will find that it was finalised on Thursday. I call for your direction on the matter on whether this vote is necessary or whether we have already had it.

Order, Sen. Wako! I have heard you. Yes, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I want to agree with Sen. Wako that the session Speaker of the day, last week, misled us. That was in spite of Sen. Wako rising in his place to try and move that we take this vote on a different day. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

Hon. Senators, I was not in the House at that time. Therefore, I will need to check the HANSARD on what transpired. Since I have been briefed, what I know for a fact is that we still need to vote on this Bill. That is the way we will proceed. The Bill will come for voting tomorrow afternoon, Wednesday, 1st October, 2014. I do not think it is useful for the House to consider all the other protestations now. So, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, be advised.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

What is it, Sen. Abdirahman? Is it something very different from what we have addressed?

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I have no problem with the directions, I appreciate. I only have a problem with the statement used by my brother, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, in terms of saying that the Deputy Speaker very ably misled us. We seek guidance from the Speaker, the Deputy Speaker, the Speakers’ Panel Members and any other person who sits on that Chair. We also make interventions and seek guidance on general practice and procedures in this House. I respect all that he said. However, I wish he would be corrected for the interest of everyone.

I wish to confirm to Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale and other Members that the Chair can never mislead. That is the correct position. Let us move on to the next Order.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Order, Sen. (Dr.) Machage. I have already determined that matter. Let us move on to the next Order. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, you were on the Floor when debate on this Bill was interrupted. You have eight minutes to conclude your contribution.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I was at the tail end of my contribution. I have only three points remaining. The first one is on the issue of privileges. It is timely that this particular Bill will clarify the privileges that Members of County Assemblies (MCAs) are entitled to. There is no better time for this. Kenyans are waiting on what this House will decide. At the moment, there are all manner of demands for privileges by MCAs to the extent that some of them want armed bodyguards and guns. From what we are now witnessing, it is clear that there are too many guns in many undisciplined hands. Members will remember what happened in Makueni County in the precincts of the County Assembly when MCAs personally, their body guards, associates or members of the public engaged in shootings. We want it to be clear whether the issue of car grants or offices should be a privilege that should be enjoyed by MCAs. This also includes the issue of mortgages. It is important that this is clear in law so that some people, who want to use the issue of car grants, offices and mortgages as carrots to dangle to MCAs, so that the noble cause of amending the Constitution of Kenya can be frustrated, may find that this has not taken place. Mr. Speaker, Sir, the debating chamber of any county assembly should be looked at as a paramount privilege. My hope is that, as the years go by, as we pass more and more money to our counties, we will make it possible for all the 47 county assemblies to have a standard model county assembly. I am aware that before the last Parliament was prorogued, architectural designs had actually been drawn. They were supposed to be the basis of constructing new county assemblies. It is my hope that this will be standardized across the board so that our counties can look the same in the Republic of Kenya. But as an interim measure, we can also save on cost. We have counties like the County Government of Kakamega which has got one of the best debating chambers in this country. Unfortunately, the office of the Governor has now moved into the offices of the county assembly and sent MCAs to the debating chamber of the former County Council of Kakamega. I hope that this matter will be made clear to my government in Kakamega so that the governor moves away from this model debating chamber that we have in Kakamega and occupies the premises that we have at the former provincial headquarters, which by the way, are very nice offices. I see no reason whatsoever why the Governor currently in The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to also support this Bill knowing very well that it has been one year since we established the county assemblies. This Bill comes in to give powers and privileges to county assemblies to conduct their business without fear. However, we need to ensure that when we give these powers and privileges to county assemblies, they do not misuse them, but that they use them to ensure there is service delivery to the people. I hope the assemblies will note that the Senate appreciates what they are doing within the county governments. However, we need to emphasise on respect and discipline. The county assemblies should not use the privileges to become rogue and hide within the premises of the assembly so that they are not taken to court. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, looking at what happened in Makueni County, if this Bill was already law, maybe today their Majority Leader would not have been in court or the Governor would not have done as he did, to bring supporters to disrupt a meeting that was within the assembly. We are also trying to protect the institution of the assembly and not just the Members. As we give county assemblies a Bill on Powers and Privileges, we must tell them that they must respect their institutions. These are the institutions that guide us in the processes of doing our work. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we also need to understand that the Senate Majority Leader referred to Article 196, if I am not wrong, to ensure that county assemblies also enjoy the privileges that other legislators in the national Government are enjoying; the Senate and the National Assembly. They are all Members. Therefore, they are there to provide oversight and to carry out legislative work. They also have a right to powers and privileges in what they do. It is important for us, as legislators, to come up with Bills that protect us. We should not go overboard or be accountable to what we are doing. This does not mean that they will go out there threatening people because they are protected by law. That will be very wrong. We also want to urge county assembly fora to educate Members to understand the Bill. The Bill does not just give powers, but expects them to obey and respect what others are doing. We hope that this will help governors to come out and start working with their county assemblies and respect one another; the executive and the county assemblies. We The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

Thank you very much, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me an opportunity to speak on this very important Bill. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, with the new Constitution, the role of the county assemblies was clearly set out. At the very beginning, there were two issues that tended to misinterpret what the role of the MCAs is. Some of them felt that they were glorified members of the local authority and they behaved as such. Some thought they were now very big persons called hon. Members of Parliament (MPs) at that level. It got into their The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity to support this very important Bill. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I will start by thanking the Senate Majority Leader for working on this wonderful Bill that seeks to facilitate the smooth working of our county assemblies. You will realize that within our constitutional design, the role played by county assemblies is very critical. We know that at the national level, the responsibility of oversight over the national Executive rests with the National Assembly and the Senate. However, at the county level, the county assemblies play a very critical role; their responsibilities being legislation at the county level, representation of residents within the wards and the oversight of county executive. For county assemblies to undertake their responsibilities effectively, they should have a good working environment that is free from fear or favour. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, some of the issues that the county assemblies will continue to handle are very sensitive, especially in their oversight role. That is why it is very important to ensure that we provide the necessary aids for our county assemblies through legislation, prescribing the powers and privileges that they enjoy. For the last one-and-a-half years, our county assemblies have had to execute their mandates in an environment that is sometimes laced with a lot of fear. This is because their privileges and powers are not captured very well and protected by legislation. Therefore, this is a very crucial Bill that seeks to ensure that our county assemblies are able to undertake their responsibilities with a lot of freedom and fairness. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, we have seen in our counties impressions being created to suggest that county assemblies are entities within the county governments and that The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. Did you hear the distinguished Senator from Nandi County mislead this House that we, the proponents of the referendum, are lying to the MCAs that we are amending the Constitution for their welfare?

Shame! Shame!

Is that the reason he attacked the Personal Assistant (PA) of the Governor?

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order! Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale, you are now spoiling--- Sen. Sang, did you actually use the term “lying”?

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I made an assertion that part of the groups proposing the referendum, some of the issues being raised as part of the The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): What is it, Sen. Murkomen?

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I did not want to interrupt the eloquent presentation by Sen. Sang, but did you hear what Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale said, that he was asserting that Sen. Sang was involved in an act of hooliganism when the Standing Orders are very clear that if you want to discuss a Member, you must bring a substantive Motion and you must also substantiate what you are saying. We had a long debate last week about the reputation of this House and the manner in which we casually bring in issues that involve a Senator or this House. Can the Senator substantiate or withdraw those assertions?

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Yes, Sen. Omar.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, when Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale said what he did, Sen. Sang, in his response, had the opportunity to respond to that. It means that if Sen. Sang did not respond---

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order! That is for me to decide.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, is it in order for the distinguished Senator for Elgeyo-Marakwet to raise the point of order he did when, in fact, the distinguished Senator for Kakamega County did not discuss the conduct of the distinguished Senator for Nandi County. He simply pointed out to him a matter that he neither denied nor avoided, that he was, in fact, there. If I was Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale I would have said; “superintended the assault on the personal assistant of the Governor of Nandi County”. We saw this in the media.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Hon. Members of the House, you are all out of order! May I remind you of the essence of coming up with a substantive Motion if you want to discuss the character or person of a Member of this House. You stand warned from the Chair that next time I will be very aggressive in reprimanding you. That is a closed chapter. Sen. Sang, you may continue.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I only responded when---

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order! That is a closed chapter. Continue with the Motion.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): I hope you are not revisiting what I have already closed.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, for closing that very ugly incident that occurred here. But in my opinion, it is not just enough to just close the issue. I am not challenging the Chair, but the Standing Orders give the Chair powers. The Chair in his wisdom should now extend his powers beyond the closing to also the requirement of the Standing Order requiring the withdrawal of the remarks. The HANSARD remains as it was unless the Member withdraws and apologise to Sen. Sang. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Sen. Murkomen, I already ruled over that matter. I recognise your thinking and view on the whole issue. Unfortunately, this had to happen that way. I will not open up that ruling.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. Your authority is very important and it is for precedent. A precedent was set last week. You were seated in this House – you and I sit---

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order, Sen. Murkomen! You are now treading on dangerous grounds.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, let me just conclude. For the good order and sanctity of this House, we cannot allow unsubstantiated statements. This is based on your ruling. I am not talking about other rulings. You have already ruled that, that was out of order. It is not enough as per the law. In your wisdom, the law is the basis under which you are making your decision and I respect that. The Standing Orders are very clear. If a Member cannot substantiate something, he or she withdraws and apologise. Otherwise the record will appear---

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Sen. Murkomen, if I go that way, there will be three apologies and withdrawals, including yours as the last for challenging this Chair.

I am willing to do that, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order, Sen. Murkomen! Let us not magnify a very trivial issue. Let us continue with the debate in the House. Continue, Sen. Sang.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, let me stand on a point of order.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order! It is not possible. Just continue with your debate.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I seek your directions because if an unsubstantiated allegation is made against myself, you asked me to respond to a particular statement by Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale on the issue of whether I said they were misleading. You did not give me an opportunity to respond to the issue that was raised against my person. If you make a ruling, what is the fate of the allegation that has been said about me?

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Sen. Sang, you were on the Floor. You had and still have the opportunity to intelligently make your statement against or for the comments or points of order that were raised. In any case, as a Member, you are supposed to reply to a point of order that has been raised against you. Could you, therefore, reply to that point of order?

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, with a lot of respect to the Chair, probably I have not read your statement clearly. If one Member used unparliamentary language and referred to another Member as a fool, the Standing Orders provide that the Member must withdraw and apologise. It is not adequate for a Member to just respond when he or she has been referred to as a fool. There should be no debate. A Member should not start explaining that he or she is not a fool. What is provided for is for the person to withdraw that statement. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order, hon. Members! The same Standing Orders give powers to this Chair to make a final ruling. I consider this matter closed. Please, proceed.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I have a very heavy heart as you expect me to proceed with my presentation after such serious allegations have been made against my person. I am a law abiding citizen. I am a leader. It is really unfair – I cannot challenge your ruling - for a senior Member of this House like Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale to make such an allegation against my person? It is unfair that the matter can be put to a close in such a manner. However, be that as it may---

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order, Sen. Khalwale! For the benefit and cohesion of this House and for the sake of making your fellow Senator a little happier because of what you may have said - which may have escaped my ear, you are being accused very strongly – you should apologise and withdraw.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, indeed, if anybody from the beginning up to now had asked me to substantiate or apologise, I would have made a decision either to substantiate or to apologise. Surely, I chose my words very well. If anybody had challenged me at that time, probably, I would have chosen to substantiate. Nobody challenged me.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): You have now been challenged. That is why I did not rule on this matter earlier. However, now you have been challenged.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, in this same Parliament, there was such a ruling. Rulings of the Chair live with the times. A Member cannot be expected to substantiate on the obvious. It is a matter of public notoriety that the Personal Assistant of the Governor of Nandi received grievous bodily harm, necessitating him to be transferred to the Intensive Care Unit (ICU) of a Nairobi hospital. When we, leaders, are in public fora, we do many things, including inspiring our youth. At that occasion, the senior-most leader there, in my view, was the Senator. Since we, as leaders, inspire our youth, if by virtue of his presence the Senator for Nandi inspired the youth through the speeches that were made, then it follows, without contradiction that this might have contributed to what provoked the youth. Since I did not call him a goon, criminal or crook, then I have nothing to apologise for. These things happen.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order, Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale. Is that what you said?

Yes, that is what I said.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Members of this House, I call upon your wisdom on matters as trivial as this, especially when we have a very important Motion on the Floor of the House. Sen. Sang is not happy with the remarks attributed to him which may have escaped my ear. Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale has been given an opportunity to explain what he said which he has eloquently done. These are matters that we, as adults and respectable legislators, can handle. I see no reason this should make me suspend a Member from the proceedings of this House. I The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order! Sen. Murkomen, I am on my feet. Yes, Sen. Haji?

On a point of order, Temporary Speaker, Sir. It is not fair for a leader to twist his stand. We all heard what hon. (Dr.) Khalwale said. In his explanation, he was insinuating that the beating took place because Sen. Sang encouraged people to attack the Governor’s Personal Assistant (PA). Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale will do very well, since he is a very senior man and gentleman, if he stands, apologises and withdraws. That will be the end. We cannot go round on the same issue.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Since this matter escaped my ear, I order that the HANSARD be produced and I will make a ruling on the matter tomorrow afternoon. Continue, Sen. Sang.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir for the position you have taken. As hon. Members of this House, it is important that we are measured using the statements that we make against each other. We are colleagues and need to engage peacefully as Members of one House. Now that the matter is closed, it will be important for me to mention a bit about the incident because this is something that has come to light. As a responsible leader and as a Member of a political party, we are protected by the Constitution to hold our party meetings. We did that in Nandi County and discussed the issues that were before us on the agenda. The meeting was peaceful and it ended well. I only learnt later, through the media, that there was an ugly incident that took place, not in the meeting, but fairly far away from the meeting. I talked to---

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Yes, Sen. Kajwang; what is it?

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. My point of order is for your direction because Sen. Sang is speaking about a matter which I do not think is in the Order Paper. He is talking about some scuffle, some party meeting and all those things which are not here. I was wondering whether he was making a personal statement The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Very well, Sen. Kajwang. I already ruled over the matter, Sen. Sang. I have kept quiet because I thought you were injured personally in the mind. But, please, desist from being irrelevant because I will rule you out of order. Use your time well.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I just wanted to shed light on that particular issue---

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): I already ruled over that, so---

That was raised here, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. Therefore, in concluding my contribution in support of this Bill, I made it clear that this is a step in the right direction. I believe that if we have to secure the powers and privileges of the MCAs, this may not necessarily be done in a Constitution; but this can adequately be catered for through an Act of Parliament like in the Bill that we are discussing. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I want to tell the MCAs that as the Senate, whose responsibility is to protect the interest of our counties, we will continue to protect the interests of the County Executive, but also more importantly, we will continue---

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Your time is up, Sen. Sang!

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Hon. Members of the House, in the Public Gallery are students from Muthale Girls High School from Kitui County. In the usual tradition, we recognize your presence and welcome you to this Session.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Proceed, Sen. Wetangula.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, for allowing me an opportunity to contribute to this Bill. It is a Bill that replicates the immunities and privileges accorded to Members of Parliament (MPs) from both the National Assembly and the Senate. If we, indeed, recognize the county assemblies as legislatures in the counties, then, obviously, the MCAs of those assemblies are equally entitled to powers and privileges to enable them do their work. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, if you want to put these matters into perspective, you may recall some very ugly incidents that happened in the old Parliaments of this country. The distinguished Senator for Laikipia will, probably, remember all of them because he has been here for a long time. You may remember when an MP from Coast talked about

that was being perpetrated by people he named on the floor – the late hon. Mahihu, the late hon. Ngei and somebody else; and Mr. Mathenge, then a Provincial The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, for this opportunity to contribute to this Bill. I stand to support this Bill which is long overdue. We can tell this from the incidents and events that we have seen in the various counties as a result of disorder and lack of law. I hope that with the enactment of this Bill there will be more order within the county assemblies. Indeed, the county assemblies have a very important role to play. Apart from the representative and oversight roles, there is also the legislative role. For that legislative role to be played adequately, it needs a conducive environment, atmosphere and everything else put into place including the personnel and the necessary training. We are also looking at this for the benefit of the counties and the communities in those counties so that good laws are legislated. This will enable counties to move to a higher level in terms of development. The various sections of the Bill are very relevant. The one on the precincts of the county assembly is very important given the fact that in certain county assemblies, not everything is held under one particular space. There should be the understanding that other rooms and spaces that are used for committees are also considered to be county assembly precincts. It is very important for people to understand this because all the other rules that come with it in terms of adherence and people being protected or certain actions not being able to take place can be projected not to take place in the specific places. For example, somebody cannot say: “I did not assault this person within this particular environment, I assaulted him or in another physical environment; that to me was not part of that county assembly space.” That definition is very critical and important because it then enables us to understand the scope and puts everything into perspective. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. This is a good Bill that will protect our county assemblies in their role of representation, legislation and oversight. As representatives of the people, there are certain things they must speak about on behalf of those that they represent and sometimes on behalf of the nation. Some of the things you must speak about on the Floor of the House need not be pleasant. At times, they may be very unpleasant but at times they may be malicious. However, this law protects the person who makes such a speech as long as it is factual without any fear of being taken to court, being asked to pay damages for it, being punished or jailed for it. I do not know how our assemblies have been operating without this instrument because most of them would have now been in court since there was no law protecting them from making factual speeches and sometimes non-factual. As long as you make such statements on the Floor of the House, then you must be protected to that extent. In fact, the Speaker should deal with you on matters of fact and may even punish you. However, he does not punish you outside in a court of law or any other forum. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

(Sen. (Dr.) Khalwale): Order! Your time is up.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I beg to support.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity to contribute to this very important Bill. In this new dispensation, we have to provide the necessary powers and privileges to the Members of the County Assemblies (MCAs) so that they can perform their responsibilities which, as we have realized, are weighty. This is because we have cases where when the Governors are called upon to appear before the Senate, they say that they are accountable to the county assemblies which up to now may not be having the privilege and power to summon those people. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the Bill is very clear because it sets the necessary conditions or grounds for the MCAs to deliver, in the sense that it actually sets out where the precincts of the county assemblies are, so that the Members will be comfortable when they are within those precincts whenever they are carrying out their business. They will know that within that area, they will have the privilege to perform without looking behind their backs. In most cases, they will be fighting for the rights of their people and it may not be an easy job dealing with forces which curtail those rights in terms of resources and even the community access to various facilities within the counties. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I also wish to contribute to this very important Bill, although the House is almost empty. The reason could be because there is no opposition to what we are talking about.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order, Sen. G.G Kariuki. I hope that you are not trying to raise the issue of quorum.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I am not saying that. I am quite clear in my mind of what I am talking about. I was just saying that the House is almost empty. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, as I said earlier, the Bill has been supported by almost every Member of this House and so, I find no reason for being here. I think it is important for all of us to be here. It is the job of the Whips to make sure that Members are here to listen and contribute. You cannot force anyone to contribute, but it is always important to be in the House. This Bill ought to have been here immediately the Senate came into being. This is because by that time this Constitution was in place. It has taken us almost two years to consider giving the MCAs powers and privileges. I think the Senate Majority Leader and the Senate Minority Leader should take responsibility for that. They ought to have brought this matter earlier. Since they have done it and we are now discussing it, we have The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order, hon. Senator. I do not think it is proper for us to go that way. Just continue with your Motion. Avoid calling names of the leadership of this country.

Sorry, I did not follow what you said. Should I go on?

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Yes, go on.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I was just trying to explain that county governments must be considerate to their constituencies and the Republic of Kenya and understand the difference. Governors should know that they control between 15 to 25 per cent of the total income of this country. The President of this country controls 85 per cent. There is no way you can measure yourself with him unless something has gone wrong somewhere. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I did not want to continue speaking to this Motion because we are all supporting it. If the two gentlemen were still in the Chamber, we The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Sen. Sijeny.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. In the unlikely event that there is no further debate---

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order, we have not reached there. I see no other Senator willing to contribute. Therefore, I call upon the Mover to respond.

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I want to take this opportunity to thank colleague Senators who have contributed to the Second Reading of this Bill. This Bill will give effect to a constitutional imperative in Article 196(3) that requires that there must be legislation that will empower Members of the County Assembly (MCAs) as well as their committees with the necessary privileges and immunities to discharge their functions. Parliamentary privileges and immunities are as important as those who have contributed to the Bill. I have followed the debate with a lot of interest. These privileges and immunities are not just granted for the sake of it. They are granted to ensure that Members of Parliament and the county assemblies can discharge their functions, and this will help them to be effective. In other words, these privileges and immunities are functional. They do not exclude the beneficiaries from being treated like any other persons. Their purpose is to ensure that Members are protected so as to perform their functions. What has come out from the debate is that the Bill is giving freedom of speech and debate to Members. It also grants freedom from arrest in civil matters. This means that criminal responsibility is not excluded altogether. This needs to be emphasized. The Powers and Privileges Bill is also securing the sanctity of the precincts of county assemblies to preempt or prevent a situation where people just walk in and out of county assemblies and intrude the precincts. This gives the precincts the necessary exclusion for purposes of ensuring that Members discharge their functions without interruption or intrusion. This Bill also allows the House to ensure that Members of County Assemblies (MCAs) conduct their activities and business with decorum. For that reason, it provides that it is an offence to insult other people, to interrupt debate, to use un-parliamentary language, to threaten or induce Members to vote or contribute in a certain way, among other things. Let me say, once more, that this Bill does not exclude MCAs from being accountable for their actions. It only shields them as they conduct their businesses in accordance with the Constitution and other legislations such as the County Governments Act. This makes them be respected collectively as a House but also as individual Members of the House in line with the doctrine of separation of powers and the privileges of parliamentary institutions. There are limitations on these privileges and immunities. Limitations include but are not limited to making utterances that are defamatory to those The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

Would you want us to put the question today?

(Sen. (Prof.) Kindiki): On a point of order, Madam Temporary Speaker. Looking at the numbers in the Chamber and also looking at the time of the day, I rise under Standing Order No.54 (3) to request the Chair to defer putting the Question on this Bill to tomorrow at a time which the Chair may determine. That will allow us to whip enough Members so that we can proceed to Division.

As per Standing Order No.54 (3), you are in order. We will put the Question tomorrow at 3.30 p.m.

Let us move on to the Next Order.

THE GOVERNMENT PROCEEDINGS (AMENDMENT) BILL (SENATE BILL NO. 10 OF 2014) Is Sen. Mutula Kilonzo Jr. not in the House? I will, therefore, defer that Bill.

Let us move to the Next Order by Sen. Judith Sijeny.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker, I beg to move that the Reproductive Health Care Bill be read a Second Time. First and foremost, I wish to start by saying that this is a very good Bill that has come at the appropriate time when the country and the world at large is aware of the problems that the human kind has suffered, especially in terms of reproductive issues. This is a Bill, you will agree with me, which has received what I would call maximum public participation. It has been discussed from all corners of the country. Many stakeholders have been involved and I thank all the people who have given feedback. Whether it appeared positive or negative, to me it was feedback and it has helped me come up now with a better Bill. This is a Bill concerning health, which has been devolved and is definitely before the right House. Madam Temporary Speaker, this Bill again abides and does not contravene any law whatsoever. It definitely supports or is according to the provisions of Article 43(1) (a) of the Constitution. The Article, if I may read states:- The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

Order, Sen. Sang and the Senate Majority Leader. We are listening to a very important Bill. Kindly consult in low tones.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker, for protecting me. As I was saying, we have seen many women die. We have been told that about 441,000 women suffer from complications of child birth or pregnancy related issues every year. The statistics keep fluctuating. We know that unless we do something, they will die. In many cases, we have seen instances where women go to deliver in hospitals but instead we see big coffins and small coffins from the hospital. Why? At times when you inquire, it is because of lack of adequate health care facilities that would have enabled these two human beings who have been brought into this world to survive. That is why this Bill takes care of the entire society and not only women. It also takes care of issues affecting men. They also have reproductive healthcare issues to be sorted out. It also takes care of the newborns or infants and adolescents. This is a special group which, unless we focus on, we may lose a generation. Since it is our duty to uphold the values of this community, we have to start with the young people. It is not good to wait until it is late; when many things have gone wrong and then we start saying that we must do this and that. As we know, once a tree has grown crooked for 30 years, you cannot straighten it overnight. This is the time to ensure that it grows well. Madam Temporary Speaker, talking about the statutes, we know that Kenya subscribes to the Millennium Development Goals (MDGs). The fifth goal is on maternal healthcare to ensure that women do not die because of maternity related issues. The fourth goal is on reduction of child mortality. We have seen all those statistics and as I go through my Bill, I will be able to demonstrate that this is a position which we cannot and shall not entertain. I wish to table a reproductive rights book, which says that reproductive rights are human rights. It states all the laws – international, regional and local – where reproductive healthcare is discussed.

The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

What is it Sen.Sang?

On a point of Order, Madam Temporary Speaker. Would I be in order to request the Senator to break this down to a language that we can understand? She has gone very scientific. I am unable to pick the gist of her presentation, especially the one on harvesting something and fertilization.

It is a bit complicated for some of us.

Order, hon. Senators. I have listened to the contributions of the Mover, Sen. Sijeny, and found nothing complicated. She is communicating in English. Which particular word did you not understand that you want a clarification so that she addresses that?

Madam Temporary Speaker, the harvesting element and the fertilising process is a bit complex. Some of us are just lawyers. She may be better placed because she has done a lot of science. However, the element of harvesting eggs and where it is done is something she needs to explain and give us the exact provisions she is proposing.

Do you want her to do a demonstration or which word did you not understand as lawyer?

That will help.

What would help?

Yes, a demonstration of how it is harvested.

How do you expect Sen.Sijeny to demonstrate how sperms are harvested?

You are out of order Sen.Sang. Proceed, Sen. Sijeny

Madam Temporary Speaker, actually---

Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo, you have another Point of Order? The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

On a point of order, Madam Temporary Speaker. I think what Sen. Sang meant is that the speaker is giving us details that we are not sure whether they will be included in the law or whether she is just explaining procedures of how the process will be conducted. I expected the details she is presenting here to be tabled on the Floor of the House. The booklets she is showing us are scientific details that should only be accessed by doctors. We are expecting details about the law.

Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo, in all honesty, I do not find anything out of order. We are all aware that this Bill has attracted a lot of public participation and opinion. What the Mover is trying to do is to explain aspects of the Bill that generated a lot of interest so that when you will be contributing, you know exactly where she is coming from and the benefits of the Bill. Sen. Sijeny, you will simplify your language so that the Senators can understand what you mean.

On a point of information,

Yes, Sen. (Dr.) Zani.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. I think most of the aspects that we are going to legislate on are critical and complicated aspects. As a result of that complication, if, for example, we are talking about gestational surrogacy or harvesting, that is where the complications begin. That is the issue we need to discuss so that when we are hinging the law, we are hinging it within the context of what is already happening either biologically, socially or culturally because all these issues now come together to create the complication. Those complications are what we are trying to ensure or those are the complications that Sen. Sijeny, through this legal provision, is trying to ensure that they are sorted out well in advance to avoid other specific contentions that she is talking about and which she has already experienced. Thank you.

Precisely, that is why I find nothing out of order. Maybe you should just use simpler language so that the Senators will understand what you mean.

Madam Temporary Speaker, if the truth be told, I have actually used a layman’s’ language. If I was to read the types of assisted reproductive technology services that exist – things like intra-cytoplasmic sperm injection, egg sperm and embryo donation; embryo, egg and sperm cryo-preservation, cytoplasmic transfers---

I have actually tried to simplify it. In fact, I---

Sen. Sang, what Sen. Sijeny is saying is that; she is giving you is the simplest form possible that she could use to communicate. Please, bear with her to conclude her presentation.

Thank you, Madam Temporary Speaker. As I was saying, the reason why – maybe I will discuss it with my colleagues here – this is something which many Kenyans are not aware of because it is something which has been going on, I could say amongst the elite. There are very few hospitals with such facilities. I think Kenyatta National Hospital (KNH) and Moi Teaching and Referral Hospital (MTRH) may have the The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

There is an intervention from Sen. Beatrice Elachi. What is the intervention?

Madam Temporary Speaker, I am on a point of information, so that Kenyans can understand more about this Bill. Indeed, as the Mover is moving the Bill, it is important to understand that in the country today, we have families that have been at logger heads because sometimes the husband is unable to sire children. Therefore, they will use the brother of the husband to get children. Sometimes these women will not be able to disclose that. I think what the Mover is trying to tell the country is that, we can use the same system to ensure that if a man has a problem, this is how he can cure it, rather than his wife using his brother to get children.

Sen. Sijeny, is that information in line with the contents of the Bill?

Yes, Madam Temporary Speaker. That upholds and protects the family unit. As I had said, everybody, both men and women, have certain challenges. However, it is the women who mostly bear most of the challenges. This is because even if the man has a problem, there is no way to prove but if it is the woman, it will be proved because there is no baby growing in her belly and she will not be breastfeeding any child. These problems do occur and this is where it can be appreciated. During public forums, I got interventions where some people were asking, for example, about the egg donor. If you want to have a baby within the family unit, the cousins and so on, can you do so if there is a child of 16 years? Can the child donate an egg? This law says, “No.” You can only donate anything if you are an adult of sound mind. The law also further looks into if the donor dies after donating, who becomes the owner and how are they supposed to be disbursed? Some of course may say: “If I die before it is fertilized, destroy.” Some say, “It is my wish, please proceed and make sure my wife gets the baby”. It is a way of continuing with the family unit. Madam Temporary Speaker, this Bill is a one-stop shop for all reproductive healthcare services. This is to avoid segmented legislation, for example, one to deal with egg, sperm and embryo donation, the other one, gestational surrogacy alone and the other ovulation induction. We have decided after getting feedback from the medical professionals, to put everything together so that in future if anyone is looking for any information concerning healthcare, then you know which law to look at. Madam Temporary Speaker, it is something new and I am not an expert. However, we have gone through a lot of public participation and I know we are still getting feedback. I know once the Bill is passed, it will still go to the National Assembly as the law requires. They will debate it and then bring it back with or without amendments. What is important is to protect the reproductive healthcare and welfare of Kenyans and other people living in Kenya. For people living in Kenya, this Bill also caters for access to reproductive healthcare services for persons living with disability. During the public participation, we have had interventions from various people and we have learnt that persons living with The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate

There is another intervention by Sen. Sang and yet we only have 30 seconds to go. Can you make it quick?

Madam Temporary Speaker, my only concern with that particular chapter was that if you look at the constitutional provisions on termination of pregnancy and what the Senator has brought, she has brought in some new elements of consultation with the mother. What is the rationale of bringing in a new concept of consultation with the mother?

How I wish we could go on and on listening to this very interesting Bill. The Mover had one hour to make her contribution, she has utilized fifty five minutes, so she will still have five minutes to conclude.

Hon Senators it is now 6.30 p.m. and it is time to adjourn the Senate. The Senate stands adjourned until tomorrow Wednesday, 1st October, 2014 at 2.30 p.m. The Senate rose at 6.30 p.m. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate