Mr. Speaker, Sir, I beg to lay the following Paper on the Table of the Senate today, Wednesday, 12th November, 2014:- Commission on Revenue Allocation recommendations on the criteria for sharing revenue among counties for the financial years 2015/2016, 2016/2017, 2017/2018. Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I sought a Statement from the Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget on 29th October, 2014, on insecurity at the coast and its adverse effects, especially on tourism. That Statement is due today.

Was the Statement directed to the Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget or the Committee on National Security and Foreign Relations? Order! It is clear it was the Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget. Is it not? The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, initially, it had been referred to the Committee on Labour and Social Welfare because it sought to look at the numbers in terms of employment. However, when it came to this House, we were advised by the Speaker then that it was not appropriate to be dealt with by the Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget. There were some questions that needed to be dealt with by the Committee on Labour and Social Welfare. The agreement we made was that the two committees would liaise but the responsibility would be on the Chairperson of the Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget.

Is the Chairperson Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget here? Give the microphone to Sen. Mositet.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I agree with Sen. (Dr.) Zani. Our Chairperson, Sen. Billow, had agreed that the Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget would look into the answer to her Statement. However, I request that since we have not discussed about it yet, with the Committee on Labour and Social Welfare, we be given one more week.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, last Wednesday, I sought a Statement regarding the state of insecurity in Kapedo. I was assured that Statement from the Chairman of the Committee on Security and Foreign Relations would be presented to the House today.

We will come to that Statement. Let us first dispose of this one by Sen. (Dr.) Zani. Sen. (Dr.) Zani, the Committee is asking for another one week.

Much obliged, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Although you have agreed, I thought you were going to resist because I have the HANSARD and the Chairman said: “Two weeks to be precise” when the Deputy Speaker referred the matter to the Committee. I did not mind if they asked for more time, when you use words like “two weeks to be precise”, the degree of accuracy there is very high. Anyway, Vice Chairperson, you have one more week. Sen. Mositet, it is not sufficient to tell the House that you have not discussed the matter with another committee. That is why you were given the two weeks. In one week’s time, bring the statement.

Let us proceed. Chairman Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget, if you may respond to the Statement by Sen. Ong’era.

It is National Security and Foreign Relations.

Sorry. In the first statement, both of you were up. I wondered whether you had assumed another title of the Chairman of the Committee on Finance, Commerce and Budget. Proceed, Sen. Haji. RISING INSECURITY IN THE COUNTRY FOLLOWING The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, it was the wish of the House that this Statement should be presented today. Unfortunately, I am not able to do so. I have been on the Clerk of the Committee since yesterday. He has not been able to get the Statement because the Minister and all the officers who are supposed to have given the information are away out the country. We want your indulgence to be given more time for us to issue the Statement.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I understand the difficulties the Chairman is experiencing in getting this Statement. However, Parliament is Parliament. When we ask for a statement, we demand that we are given the answer. Bearing the difficulties, insecurity and the issues that are facing Kapedo, we needed to get an urgent answer. It is not enough to be told that these officers are out of the country. Parliamentary business must go on. This is a digital Government, so they claim!

Indeed, I could not agree more with the Senator. When people travel, presumably, they do not carry their offices with them. Secondly, this is a digital Government. They need to demonstrate this because with these days of mobile telephony, email, Whatsup, Facebook, Skype and Twitter, they should be able to communicate.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, you are quite right. However, if I could be appointed to that office, I can assure you the answers will be given immediately. However, for now I depend on other people to give me the answers to bring to the House. The House should bear that in mind.

Are you giving any indication? How long do you need?

One more week, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I had a Statement---

Order, Senator. I advised yesterday that if you have a request, because we are already on the Order on Statements, then you put it under “requests.” The “intervention” is where you have a point of order on the matter before the Floor for this particular sitting. So, if you have a request, you will put it under “requests”. Yes, Sen. Wangari Martha. DESTRUCTION OF INSULIN MEANT FOR CHILDREN WITH DIABETES The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, on 1st October, 2014, I sought a Statement from the Chairperson of the Committee on Health on the destruction of insulin. The Statement was referred to 21st October, 2014 then 27th October, 2014 until last week when I was assured it will be issued today. I am still waiting for the Statement. That matter is long overdue.

Vice Chairperson, Committee on Health, what is your response?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, indeed, we agreed as a Committee to provide the answer today. However, up to now, we have not received any communication from the Ministry. In spite of trying to get that information, it has not come to our Committee. I am afraid we still have to hold on and wait for the communication from the Ministry.

Surely, you cannot just be at the mercy of the Ministry, especially after you have given them ample time.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, we communicate and we are still waiting for the communication to get back to us.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, this question has had very many inconsistencies. I had raised this issue two weeks ago and one of the Members had the said the answer is with the Chair. When we came the following week, it was not. Last week, it was clear that the Ministry has already done a response. The only response that we were waiting for was from the Kenya Revenue Authority (KRA) which is different. That was given by Sen. (Prof.) Lesan as a Member of the Committee. The response from the Cabinet Secretary was already with the Committee. The response we are waiting for apparently was supposed to be that of KRA. These inconsistencies need to be cleared. We need to know where we stand because a month has gone by and we are almost going to another half of November.

Vice Chairperson, which is which? The KRA or the one from the Ministry?

I do not understand what she is asking. If she already knows there is a response, then she is comfortable.

Order, Senator.

I mean it, Mr. Speaker, Sir. She seems to be informed. I am not informed myself. I am saying that we are still waiting for the response from the Ministry.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Are you satisfied with the arrogance being displayed by the Vice Chairperson of the Committee turning to a questioner and saying: “You have the answer, so you do not need to ask”? We know that a week or two ago, this matter came to the Floor. It generated a lot of interest including the Deputy Speaker joining in and you directed that they have to bring more information. After we were told the Chairman had the answer, then it turned out there was no answer. The House cannot be held at ransom by committees that are not working. We need to get answers, particularly to this question where drugs that were meant to cure people who are terminally ill have been destroyed. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I totally disagree that I portrayed any arrogance. I simply said; if the Senator is asking that question and she seems to be aware, then she knows exactly where the question is. But as far as our committee, which is a very hardworking one, is concerned, we have not received the response from the Ministry. That is my stand and it is not arrogance. I am just stating this clearly.

I agree with you, you may not be arrogant, but others perceive you to be arrogant.

Unfortunately, that is how I am made.

Order, Senator. The most important issue is what your response was to the observation by Sen. Wangari that, already, there was a response from one source and another one was being awaited. The fact that she was aware that there is a communication does not mean that she knows the content. It does not deny the Committee the opportunity to come and bring it to the Floor because this is where we prosecute the business, not in the corridors.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, it is very unfortunate that we are getting such a response from the leadership of the Committee because I did not get this information from the corridors. The information was on the Floor of this House last week when the Speaker directed that the Statement be brought this week. The Vice Chairperson was present and it was given by a Member of the Committee. I was hoping that it would have been a build-up of yester week’s response and not going back to the beginning. Then it means that the Committee has nothing at all. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I request that you guide us because there is a statement that had come from the Ministry. Can we first get the status of whether that is still there? Has the KRA responded? We are talking about drugs meant for children with Type 2 diabetes. It is not a joke and it is also not an easy matter as it is portrayed to be.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I have sat here listening to the exchanges this afternoon in respect to the issue of statements sought from the various Ministries. Some of the questions are very important because they relate to the lives and welfare of our citizens, some to do with security matters, economic issues of tourism, drugs, and so on. Mr. Speaker, Sir, are you satisfied that the Ministries concerned have the right attitude in terms of giving answers? Information is readily available in the Ministries on some of these issues. Are you satisfied that this is the way we are going to go on in this House?

Of course, I am completely dissatisfied. I am even dissatisfied that the Committee does not seem to see the sense of urgency. I have copies of all correspondence in terms of the HANSARD from the beginning of this request. Except, Sen. Wangari, I have actually confirmed that the Chairman of the Committee, Sen. (Dr.) Kuti confirmed that they had not gotten any response even from the Ministry. They just said they were considering the matter that very morning, they had sent out letters and they were sending the clerk to take the letter. So, Sen. Kittony may be right, but she needs to demonstrate that. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, we will try again, maybe, on Wednesday. We have Monday and Tuesday to find out whether we can get that response.

Today is Wednesday. We give you up to Tuesday, next week. You either bring the response or table the Cabinet Secretary. We need something. Next statement, Sen. (Prof.) Lesan.

Yesterday, I sought a statement regarding the tea industry. We were promised that at 2.00 p.m. today, we would get a response from the Chairman of the Committee on Agriculture, Livestock and Fisheries. I think the Chairman is here and he could give us the answer.

Members, I have previously advised that when it comes to Statements, let us first dispose the requests then we go the responses and we can do the reminders if there are any that are outstanding. That way, we will make better use of our time. Let me have the fresh requests first and then I will come to the responses. Reminders will be last after the responses so that we can determine whether somebody is there to respond or not. Yes, Sen. Melly. CLOSURE OF NATIONAL CEREALS AND PRODUCE BOARD SILOS IN UASIN GISHU AND MIGORI COUNTIES

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise to seek a Statement from the Chairman of the Committee on Agriculture, Livestock and Fisheries regarding the closing down of the National Cereals and Produce Board (NCPB) silos in Uasin Gishu County. In the statement, the Chairman should:- (1) Explain when the NCPB silos will be opened to allow farmers to deliver and sell their maize produce to the Board. (2) State the price at which the Board will purchase the maize from the farmers.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The issue raised by Sen. Melly is very significant not only to his area of jurisdiction but also to Migori County where the maize stores have remained closed despite the bumper harvest and rotting of maize in the villages. The NCPB is not buying any maize from the farmers hence giving a situation of middlemen to exploit farmers. I request, if I am in order, that, that concern is made as an addendum to the request sought by Sen. Melly.

It is so ordered.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Statement that has been sought by Sen. Melly is a very important one. I want to add to that Statement that, if the Chairman could The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Chairman, Committee on Agriculture, Livestock and Fisheries, what is your response to this?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, Sen. (Prof.) Lesan---

Order, Sen. Murungi. Before you respond to that, there is a request that has just been put by Sen. Isaac Melly. We will come back to you on the issue of Sen. (Prof.) Lesan.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, we are getting problems getting prompt responses from the Ministry. Could we be given two weeks to respond?

Two weeks is fine.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

What is it, Sen. Melly?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want to make a request to the Chairman of the Committee on Agriculture, Livestock and Fisheries that as we talk today, most farmers in the country, not just Uasin Gishu County, have harvested their maize. The challenge we have is that they do not have a place to store their produce as they await the National Cereals and Produce Board (NCPB) to open their doors. It is so urgent that if we do not do it in a week’s time, our farmers may lose their produce because as we talk now, their produce is outside. I request the Chairman of the Committee on Agriculture, Livestock and Fisheries to provide the answer by Tuesday next week.

Chairman of the Committee on Agriculture, Livestock and Fisheries.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Committee is actually aware of the crisis that the maize farmers are facing. In our meeting today, we decided to request the Cabinet Secretary (CS) for Agriculture, Livestock and Fisheries to appear before the Committee on Wednesday next week so that we raise issues regarding the purchase of maize from farmers. However, we have not got a response because the request was only sent today. We have not got any confirmation whether the CS will appear or not. However, Mr. Speaker, Sir, to give a formal answer to the House, I request that we be given two weeks so that we meet the CS. Thereafter, we will get a written response from his Office, then we will respond to the Hon. Senator. We are aware of the urgency of the matter and that is why we requested that the CS appears before us on Wednesday.

I think two weeks is reasonable and since, Chair, you have heard the sentiments from the Senators; if you can get the response sooner, feel at liberty to bring it forward. We are done with the requests, so we will go to the responses. Sen. Murungi, Chair, Committee on Agriculture, Livestock and Fisheries. STATUS OF BONUS PAYMENT TO SMALL-SCALE TEA FARMERS UNDER KTDA The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. The Senator for Bomet County, Sen. (Prof) Lesan, requested a response from us in the following statement. He needed a response on the status of the second payment of the proceeds from the sale of green tea, commonly known as the “bonus”. Number two, on the e-trade, which is now an accepted mode of trading in auctions internationally. Three, he wanted the Committee to indicate the number of directors in all the 66 tea factories, showing their total emoluments for the year 2012/2013. Mr. Speaker, Sir, we have contacted the CS for Agriculture, Livestock and Fisheries and we wish to give the following response. Regarding question number one, we would like to respond as follows: The mini bonus is the interim second payment which is based on six months crop deliveries of tea. The directors of the factories could resolve to pay a mini bonus that ranges from zero to Kshs5 per kilogramme of green tea. The resolution to pay the mini bonus is a decision of each individual factory and is largely guided by a combination of the following factors: 1. Performance and cash flows of the respective factories at the time of the payment; 2. The factory tradition and precedence as approved by the shareholders of each tea factory; and, 3. Kisii and Nyamira resolved to stop paying mini bonuses in 2008 so as to maximize what is payable to growers during the final bonus payout. Regarding second question, which is on the e-trade at the auction, the Mombasa Tea Auction is run and managed by the East Africa Tea Traders Association (EATTA). Any initiative at the auction will be spearheaded by the EATTA in consultation with other stakeholders such as producers, buyers, brokers, packers, wells men and blenders of tea. The Kenya Tea Development Agency (KTDA) has taken a hind row in adoption of electronic billboard system through which it has brought efficiency at the auction especially in tea tracking, prompt payments and credit mitigation. In partnership with commercial banks, the KTDA has developed a mass payment system that ensures over 600,000 farmers in this country receive their payments, which can be processed even within a day. Mr. Speaker, Sir, on the third question, which is on the number of directors and their emoluments in 2012/2013, there are 54 parent companies each with seven directors who were elected by shareholders. Each of the seven directors is entitled to an annual gross emolument of Kshs161,268 per year. This is paid out at a quarterly gross of Kshs40,317. This totals to a gross of KShs1,128,876 per factory for the 54 company factories for the Financial Year 2012/2013. Thank you Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Sen. (Prof.) Lesan. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. First of all, I thank the Chairman of the Committee on Agriculture, Livestock and Fisheries for the response that he has brought to the House. However, I am completely not satisfied with the answer. First, this is because I did not ask in any of my questions – which I put forward – anything to do with mini bonus. I noticed the first question is dealing with mini bonuses but I never mentioned anything to do with that since it was not relevant in this case. I asked for the entire total second payment for the farmers, which is the biggest issue in the country at the moment, as regards the payments for farmers. Two, Mr. Speaker, Sir, the rest of the answer which has been given does not have any relevance to what I had asked. Therefore, it does not answer to the very needy questions that I had asked, in particular, with regard to the directors of the company. There are 66 tea factories and each one of the agencies that manage them should have seven directors as per the regulations of KTDA. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I am aware that the 12 satellite factories which are indicated in this letter, seven of them are in Bomet and Kericho Counties. As far as I know ---

Senator, do you want to seek any clarifications?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I want a clarification on whether there are any directors who are representing satellite factories. Secondly, I would also like to know whether the regulations governing the election of directors were followed as regards the new established factories which have been nicknamed “satellites.” They are, indeed, part of the tea industry and complete companies that should operate on their own. I, therefore, would like to know why they are not represented by their directors. I have just received this reply. There are many other things which I am not satisfied about. However, I will interrogate the report. I will read it further and if I get another opportunity, I will ask more substantive and detailed questions with regard to the answer that has

Thank you for the opportunity. I know that tea farmers, all over the country, including the Chairmen of County Tea Boards have been given a raw deal. They are a dissatisfied group. I also know that the Chairperson of the Committee on Agriculture, Livestock and Fisheries, Sen. Murungi, took the initiative to invite all stakeholders to a meeting recently. These matters were discussed exhaustively. I was wondering when the Chairperson would bring the report of that meeting for debate in this Chamber.

Thank you Mr. Speaker, Sir. The Kenya Tea Development Agency (KTDA) recognizes only 54 fully fledged tea factories and for which information they have given regarding emoluments of directors. From the information I have, satellite factories are not considered to be separate legal entities, completely separate from their parent companies. That is why there is no information regarding the emoluments of the directors in the companies. With regard to the regulation regarding election of directors after the satellite companies fulfill certain conditions, they will be fully fledged tea factories with separate identities. The regulations regarding the elections will be applied at that particular time. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Let us have the next Statement from Sen. Madzayo.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir.

Mr. Karaba, the Chairperson has said that he has a comprehensive report. I am sure that some of the issues you have will be sorted out then.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. He has not covered the issue of fertiliser, which I had raised earlier. The issue is that there is fraudulent or scandalous under weighing of fertilizer. Farmers are getting the bags at 45 kilogrammes instead of 50 kilogrammes which they pay for. The Chairman should tell us what the Committee is doing so that we can save farmers from further pecuniary embarrassment.

Sen. Kembi-Gitura, do it briefly as Sen. Karaba. Well done, Sen. Karaba, for making a brief intervention.

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I have great respect for Sen. Murungi for the way he is running the Committee on Agriculture, Livestock and Fisheries. It is very admirable because he has taken real charge and interest in it. I am looking forward to seeing the report he is compiling pursuant to the stakeholders meeting that we had. The only thing I would like to ask Sen. Murungi is whether or not the petitions that have come from the counties, like the one for Murang’a, will be answered The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I have not specifically addressed the issue of fertiliser because it was not part of the Statement requested by Sen. (Prof) Lesan. I will need more time to study it. However, since the report we will bring to the House covers broad ranging issues touching the entire tea sector, I request our brother, Sen. Karaba, to raise his issues in the process of the discussion of that report. This is a very comprehensive report. Regarding the issue raised by the Deputy Speaker, the Senator for Murang’a, indeed, my Committee considered that petition this morning. Initially, we thought that it would be covered by the general report. However, the Standing Orders require that we respond in a specific manner to every petition that we receive. We decided to give a 14 day notice to the petitioner. We are also requesting the Senator to appear before us next Wednesday when the petitioners will be here. We have also invited the KTDA management and the management of the Makomboki Tea Factory so that we address the issues raised by the petitioner and bring a report to this House as required by the Standing Orders. The matter is being addressed in that manner.

The next Statement is from Sen. Madzayo. DISQUALIFICATION OF MR. B. MBEJA FROM CHIEF ENGINEER RECRUITMENT AT MINISTRY OF TRANSPORT AND INFRASTRUCTURE

Bw. Spika, majuma matatu yaliyopita, niliuliza swali kwa Mwenyekiti wa Kamati ya Barabara na Uchukuzi. Niliuliza swali kulingana na kile cheo kilichotangazwa cha chief mechanical engineer, na kwamba Bw. Beja alikuwa mmoja wa wale watu waliofanya mtihani na akaibuka kwamba yeye ndiye aliyekuwa na

za hali ya juu. Katika mtihani huo, yeye ndiye aliyekuwa wa kwanza. Lakini, Waziri wa Uchukuzi na Miundo Msingi alichagua mtu mwingine aliyekuwa wa nne. Swali hilo tulilouliza hapa majuma matatu yaliyopita kwa Mwenyekiti wa Kamati ya Barabara na Uchukuzi, hatujapata jawabu mpaka sasa. Ninataka kujua kama jawabu hilo linaweza kupatikana, na litapatikana lini? Ama suala hilo linaweza kujibiwa siku gani? Asante Bw. Spika.

The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Is the Chair, Vice-Chair or Member of the Committee in the House? Ama Kiswahili kimewashinda?

No, do I have to respond in Swahili?

Sen. Sijeny.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I was of the opinion that the last time we talked, we were to have a retreat and that is what we have been pursuing with the Cabinet Secretary for Transport and Infrastructure. The Senators who attended the Committee meeting requested for that and the Cabinet Secretary agreed. All the other issues were supposed to be articulated during the meeting. However, if the Senator requires an answer before that, because we are working on a date and I have been following it up, I would request for at least one week because I know a few Committee Members are meeting the Cabinet Secretary on Tuesday next week. We could follow up on that issue.

Let me guide the House. The retreat should deal with broad matters, but if you look at the Statement sought by Sen. Madzayo, there are quite specific matters which I think we should interrogate in the normal manner. What you are requesting should be sufficient for purposes of Sen. Madzayo. So, in one week’s time, you respond to that one as you plan the other things. Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo. DEPLOYMENT OF THE KENYA DEFENCE FORCES (KDF) IN TIATY CONSTITUENCY; BARINGO COUNTY

Mr. Speaker, Sir, last Wednesday, 29th of October, 2014, I sought a Statement from the Chairperson of the Standing Committee on National Security and Foreign Relations regarding the operation taking place in Baringo County. There was a specific question I sought, why the Government security agents were destroying people’s property. The Vice-Chairperson was here and she requested for one week, which is today, that the answer will be given and she is seated here. I would like to get the answer. Thank you.

Vice-Chair, Sen. Adan.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, the Chairperson and I spoke to the clerk of the Committee this afternoon. He said the answer will be brought this afternoon and we are waiting. Therefore, once we get it, we will deliver it tomorrow in the afternoon.

You may wish to combine because there was one by Sen. Ong’era and the Chair asked for one more week. It is quite a bit similar. If you can get it sooner, the better. So, just make sure that it deals with both. Let us give it a shot tomorrow.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I believe the one for Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo is ready but the other one, I might not promise that we will have it tomorrow because the Chairperson has already given a week to respond to that. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Tomorrow afternoon, it is. That should be the end of a Statement time. Next order.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, I rise under Standing Order No.33 (1) to give notice of a Motion of the following Motion of Adjournment:- THAT, the Senate, today, Wednesday, 12th November, 2014, adjourns to discuss a definite matter of national importance regarding the deployment of the Kenya Defense Forces (KDF) in Tiaty Constituency; Baringo County.

Stand up!

Order! Hon. Senators, stop intimidating others, you have more numbers than you need.

You may resume your seats.

The matter should come up for debate from 5.30 p.m. today. What is it, Sen. Chelule? DELAYED SUBMISSION OF REPORT ON THE POTATO PRODUCE AND MARKETING BILL (SENATE BILL NO.22 OF 2014)

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I am standing on a point of order to seek your guidance on the Potato Bill that was brought into this House by Sen. (Eng.) Muriuki and it was referred to the Committee on Agriculture, Livestock and Fisheries. Upto now, it has not come back as per Standing Order No.134. Kindly, I am requesting for--- The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Order! Do not be repetitive. I have heard you and the Chair has heard you. The Chair for the Standing Committee on Agriculture, Livestock and Fisheries?

Mr. Speaker, Sir, our Committee was doing public hearings on the Potato Bill. We have finalized that process and we have received very many comments requiring the amendments which the Committee has also finished. I am happy to report that we are ready to proceed and bring our report to this House any time from now, even if it is tomorrow.

Sen. Chelule.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir. Let us hope the Chairman will keep his word because this is what we have been waiting for, for the last three weeks.

Chairman!

Mr. Speaker, Sir, you have heard the compliment I have received from the Senate Minority Leader; that I am an honest person. I am ready to bring this report tomorrow, if it is put on the Order Paper. But as you know the Chairperson of the Committee on Agriculture, Livestock and Fisheries is not in charge of the Order Paper. Immediately it appears on the Order Paper, we will be ready to move it.

It shall be so ordered; tomorrow afternoon, so that you can maintain your track record of that honesty and delivery. I really thought she was challenging you on the particular Standing Order and she was very specific that it is Standing Order No.134. I guess you can add one. It is talking about 30 calendar days. This matter even came before the Rules and Business Committee (RBC) and there was need for the mover of the proposed legislative proposal to be informed if the period is exceeded, but she undid her own case by saying that she has been waiting for three weeks which comes to 21 days. Standing Order No.134 (i) talks of 30 calendar days. So, I think that matter is sorted out. Next Order!

Asante sana, Bw. Spika, kwa kunipa nafasi hii kuchangia Hoja hii. Kwanza, nataka niunge mkono Hoja hii kwa nguvu zangu zote. Hoja hii imechelewa; ingekuwa imeletwa kitambo na tungekuwa tumewapeleka watu hawa kortini na kumalizana nao. Njama na mbinu zilizotumika kuua Seneti ya kwanza ndizo hizi zinazotumika hivi sasa. Mwaka wa 1965, walianza kusema kwamba Seneti haikuwa na kazi na kwamba kazi yake ingeweza kutekelezwa na Bunge la Kitafa. Wakaanza kusema kwamba lile Bunge la Seneti la kwanza linaweza kufanya kazi yake, lakini iangaliwe na Bunge Kuu. Pia, wakasema kwamba Bunge lile lilikuwa na watu wengi na lilikuwa halina maana ila tu kumaliza pesa za Wakenya. Ukiangalia tunavyopigwa vita sasa, ni kama historia inajirudia; tunaambiwa kwamba kazi ya Bunge hili inaweza kutekelezwa na Bunge la Kitaifa na kwamba Bunge hili linaongezea mshahara na matumizi ya Serikali na kwa hivyo, linaweza kufutiliwa mbali. Lakini jambo ambalo hatuelezwi ni kwa nini Serikali ya majimbo iliuawa mwaka wa 1965. Ni kwamba maseneta waliokuweko wakati huo walihongwa na kupewa viti bila kugombea. Waliongezewa muda kwa miaka miwili na wakapewa marupurupu ndiposa wakakubali kuua majimbo. Lakini Katiba ya sasa ambayo tulipitisha 2010 ilisema wazi kwamba ugatuzi utakuwepo na ndio maana asilimia 80 ya Wakenya waliipigia Katiba mpya kura kwa sababu ya ugatuzi. Bw. Spika tulipounda Seneti kuanzia mwaka jana, tuliona majaribio mengi kwa Bunge hili la Seneti na tukaanza kusikia wenzetu wengine wakisema kwamba wanaweza kutekeleza kazi yetu. Wengine wakasema kwamba uchumi hauruhusu Bunge la Seneti kuwepo; wengine wakasema kwamba Bunge la Seneti ni la wazee lakini ukumbuke kwamba, panapo wazee hapaharibiki jambo. Ndio maana ninasema kwamba Katiba hii ya 2010 iliweka Kenya kuwa na mfumo wa ugatuzi. Bila ugatuzi, hakuna Kenya na bila Kenya, hakuna ugatuzi. Ndio maana wakaweka Seneti kwenye Katiba na wakasema kwamba kazi yetu pia ni kutunga sheria. Lakini hivi sasa, inavyoonekana ni kwamba walivyofanyia Bunge lile la Seneti, wanataka kufanyia Bunge hili. Lakini nataka niwaambie kwamba Bunge hili ni tofauti kwa sababu tuna uwezo, ujuzi, maarifa na malengo. Hatutakubali kamwe mtu yeyote kugusa Bunge la Seneti. Ukitaka kuvunja Kenya, ni lazima uvunje ugatuzi na Seneti. Hii ndio maana magavana wanapoendela kusema kwamba wanataka pesa mshinani, lengo lao la pili wanasema kwamba ni kuboresha Bunge la Seneti liwe na nguvu zaidi kuliko lile Bunge la wengi. Lakini sisi, masikitiko ni kwamba tuliwapuuza na tukawapiga vita; tunatetewa na tunakataa. Ni lini mgonjwa akakataa kutibiwa na daktari? The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, Sir. I stand from the outset to support this Motion and also indicate that maybe this is the turning point in our relationship as we proceed to create this institution that is called the Senate. Article 93(2) states:- “The National Assembly and the Senate shall perform their respective functions in accordance with is Constitution.” There is no doubt at all that the law guides us in our relationships with them. Article 94(1), and I think this is the most important article, states that:- The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you, Mr. Speaker, Sir, for giving me this opportunity to support this most important Motion. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I was not able to join you in Mombasa and was not in the House yesterday, because of some personal challenges that I had. But I was following the proceedings both in Mombasa and yesterday. I was very happy with the positions taken by the Senators both in Mombasa and in this House yesterday. I was especially very glad to hear the Senate Majority Leader say that whoever touches the Senate Minority Leader touches him and the Senate Minority Leader reciprocates. I think that is the spirit. We want to fight for the institution of the Senate. We have to ignore the small and petty differences between us because the big picture is here for all of us. We have to fight this institution as Senators. Let us not be divided by those other small partisan interests. Mr. Speaker, Sir, I especially want to support the idea that we go back to the Supreme Court for another advisory opinion. Many laws have been passed, which touch on the counties even in their own contexts, even when the plain reading of the law talks about the counties. However, there are some people who are maliciously reading the laws to pretend that they do not touch on issues regarding the counties. For instance, the Mining Bill. Where are you going to mine? There are no mines in the sky!

Mining has to take place within one county or another. So, for any person to pretend that this law does not affect the counties, he must only not be a lawyer but somebody out of his mind. Time has come for the Senate to fight for its own space. We have a lot of enemies; there are people who do not want to see us within the counties because they say that the work of the Senate is in Nairobi. When we come to Nairobi, the National Assembly says that we have no business passing laws because our work is in the counties. Mr. Speaker, Sir, when we invite the governors to our committees to account for the national Government monies being authorized by the Senate to the counties, the accountability law is also being denied by the courts. Time has come for us to create our able space. Otherwise the Senate will be emasculated and wound up like the Senate that we had in the 1960’s. A lot of laws have been passed, even in agriculture. We have the Crops Act which was passed by the National Assembly without any reference at all to the Senate, as if there is any agriculture taking place anywhere outside the counties.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I support the proposal that all the laws which have been passed without reference to the Senate be reviewed by the Supreme Court to test their The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

There is still time.

What I was saying is that we need to go beyond advisory opinion because we have gone that route before and even the advisory opinion itself has been The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I also want to join my colleagues in supporting this Motion. In doing so, I want to remind the people out there that the Senate is not an ordinary Chamber of Parliament because it may be lost to those who are criticizing the Senate that each elected Senator here is elected directly by the people from the counties. It is not like in some countries where you find Senators elected by a college of councilors or a college of a county assembly. The Senators in Kenya are directly elected by the people and in accordance with Article 1 of the Constitution, whenever we speak, we do so on the basis of the sovereign power delegated to each Member of the Senate by the people of Kenya. If you have any doubt, I would urge you to read Article 1 of the Constitution. The second point is that when Senators are directly elected, you will find that a Senator like the Senator for Kiambu, Sen. Wamatangi, in some constituencies, he got more votes than the individual Member of Parliament from that county. So, when he is speaking here, he is speaking with the voice and authority of the people of that constituency. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Speaker, Sir, thank you very much. From the outset, I rise to support this Motion and the sentiments that have been expressed by the very able Senators who have spoken before me, particularly, the last remarks by Sen. Orengo. There are very many ways of destroying the Government. One way of destroying the Government is to sabotage it from within. It is sad and concerning that the individuals involved in these entire circus are actually Jubilee operatives who are sabotaging a Jubilee Government. There is no other way of defining the actions that are being taken currently, except through sabotage. When you want to destroy the name of a Government or work that has been going on is by allowing 46 Bills to be signed into law without the involvement of the Senate. This is done under the guise of the protection of egos, The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Bw. Naibu Spika, ninakushukuru kwa kunipa nafasi hii. Kwa moyo mzito sana ninaunga mkono Hoja hii iliopendekezwa kwetu na Kiongozi wa Wengi katika Bunge hili. Ningependa kuyaangazia mawazo yangu juu ya uzembe wa watu fulani ambao kwa hiari yao wenyewe wamekataa kutii sheria na kuhujumu uongozi wa Rais wa nchi hii. Na sijui kama anajua ama hajui. Ni sawa kukosa mara moja au mara mbili, lakini kutia sahihi yake Miswada 46 bila kujali Seneti si jambo mwafaka. Ametia kidole chake bila kuzingatia Kipengele 93 cha Katiba. Kipengele hiki ni juu ya umuhimu wa Seneti katika Miswada yote. Je, mtu huyu ni mbumbu au hekima ilienda wapi? Hiyo ndio picha unayotaka iwe ya Rais wa nchi hii kuwa hatunzi sheria. Aliyeleta Hoja hii amenukuu vipengele 93, 94, 91 vya Katiba yetu ambavyo vinapeana mamlaka kwa korti zetu kuangalia haya mambo. Kipengele 110 cha Katiba The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I would like to commend those who have spoken before me on this very important Motion. This Motion has come timely. I would also like to commend the Mover of the Motion and say the devolution is closer to the people for better development. We all supported and signed the new Constitution. It is very clear that Article 96 talks about the Senate and its mandate. I know that we have 16 women Senators. I was very concerned because it is only the men who were catching the eye of the Chair and I was wondering where the position of women is. I am even going to call upon the women of Kenya that come next elections, let them be elected to the Senate because we are going to be closer to the people for better development and prosperity of this country. Therefore, let more women catch the Speaker’s eye so that they can support devolution. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, this is a Motion that should have come like yesterday. It is almost coming late. I support the sentiments by other Senators. We need to respect the laws that have been put in place. We need to conform to what is being said and what is in the law so that we do not make mistakes or mislead the Government of the day. We all like this country and love our leaders so we do not want to look like we are fighting one another. This country is big enough for all of us. The space is big enough for us to make The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Order. I recognized you because you are a Senator not because you are a woman. I do not want us to genderise the Senate. Sen. Kittony, I thank you very much for your contribution.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I rise to support this Motion. I am quite confident that the Supreme Court of Kenya will agree with what Senators have said. However, I am not afraid to say that the Supreme Court will eventually find itself where it found itself in the first instance when we approached it; namely, a defiant Speaker of the National Assembly. Let the Speaker of the National Assembly know that we also have other options. Yes, the Supreme Court is there, but we also have the court of public opinion. If pushed, we shall be asking the country to amend this Constitution so that it conforms with the best international practices of bi-cameral parliament as it obtains in the United States of America (USA), Canada, Australia, South Africa, Nigeria and in many other countries. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, having opened so, allow me to thank the Senate Majority Leader. He moved this Motion very well yesterday and it was seconded very ably by Sen. Wetangula. Some of the Speakers in the “Lower House” are new entrants to the political journey that some of us started walking at the age of 22 years when we were at the University of Nairobi (UoN). Allow me to remind them that since 1965 when Tom Mboya and Mwai Kibaki came up with a Sessional Paper that locked out many parts of this country out of national resources, many things have changed. In 1985, the former President Moi discovered that something was wrong. So, he came up with the District Focus for Rural Development The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, let me salute the leadership of the Senate for the good conference they had in Mombasa, after which they came to realize that the existence of this Senate was under threat. I salute the entire leadership and also thank our Speaker, Hon. Ethuro who sat on the Chair the whole afternoon guiding this House when this Motion was being debated. Mr. Deputy Speaker, I think the whole country knows that the Senate is there, it is going to be there and it knows that we have been doing a good job. One of the things we did after being elected so that we could be called Senators, we were sworn in. We were sworn in to defend our Constitution. Even those in the National Assembly and the Executive swore to defend the Constitution. The Senate with its humility, being the defender of the Constitution and the protector of the counties has come out with this Motion because there are some mistakes being made and we must correct them. Many are the times when the whole nation would wonder whether the Speaker of the National Assembly has been acting out of ignorance or as a way of acquiring more power. It should be very clear in his mind and even to the Members of the National Assembly that power was devolved. The National Assembly has its limits and also the Senate has its duty. With all due respect, we need not be accorded respect, but to be given The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Is Sen. Mositet in order to imply that women who contested as Senators and lost are not real women? What does he mean by what he said?

Sen. Mositet, what exactly did you say?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I just said that yesterday in the debate in the National Assembly---

Do not cut it out because it is in the HANSARD. I did not quite follow it. That is why I want to know what agitated Sen. Ong’era so much.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I just said that all the Senators who were elected into this House are male. However, the maturity of the Senate was in doubt The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Sen. Mositet, I do not understand you. I am not quite with you. Are you challenging them? Are you saying that you want them to try and see whether you are man enough or what are you saying?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I have a lot of respect for Sen. Janet and I know that she will vie even next time. I just said that there was a feeling by one of the Members of the National Assembly that the Senators have not matured. In our community, maturity can only be tested, at least, if a bull can reach--- I will leave that to the bullfighter.

Order! Has Sen. Mositet said something offensive? I do not understand him to have said anything offensive. I am not trying to defend him, but are you imputing that he has said something offensive?

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, is Sen. Mositet implying that the women who lost were not mature enough?

No! I did not understand him to say that.

That is what he implies, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

You asked me for my ruling on this issue and I did not get him to say that.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, he said that there are only 47 men who won in the elections; therefore, that shows their maturity. He even went further to allege something about a bull in his community. These are terms that are being alluded to in a symbolic manner to disparage the image of the women who contested for the senatorial seats.

On a point of information, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir.

Do you want to be informed?

Yes, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. I would like to be informed by my sister, Sen. Elizabeth.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, with all due respect, I have been listening to the debate and Sen. Mositet is simply debating with a moran mentality, which is also allowed. That is the community that he comes from. I have not personally taken any offence. I vied for the Senate seat and I am not here by default. I think he is just trying to drive a point home from a moran’s mentality.

Sen. Ong’era, I do not want us to pursue this further. But honestly, in my own estimation, hearing and understanding, I get it that Sen. Mositet is trying to be symbolic. That is his way of understanding a contest between two people. If I got him to disparage women, I would be the first one to stop him. However, I did not get that impression at all. If you look at the HANSARD, maybe The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir. Let it be on record that I wish all women in this country who will contest for the senatorial seat the very best, including the Member of the National Assembly who was doubting the maturity of the Senators. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, with all due respect, it is clear that we have come up with quite a number of Bills in this Senate and they have found their way to the National Assembly. I was a Member of the ad hoc Committee which was headed by Sen. Zani. We did a good job knowing very well that the counties have been suffering a lot with regard to minerals. Today it was even very sad to see Mr. Kinuthia wa Mwangi, the Chairman of the Transition Authority (TA) trying to caution the Governor of Kwale and Kwale County that they should not be talking about the minerals in the county. He said that they should not even include it in the Finance Bill of the county because it a national Government function. Let him know that he is very wrong and completely out of order. The titanium which is mined there, is just like sand in many other counties. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, every county has a special mineral which they can boast of. My own county has a lot of minerals. In fact, cement cannot be manufactured without making use of the raw materials found in Kajiado. However, our county gets very little from the exploitation of those raw materials. Of course, we have salt in Magadi. In fact, we have oil reserves. It is only that announcements have not been done. At least from the explorations which have been ongoing, we know that we also have oil. Many other counties have these natural resources. Therefore, it will really be wrong for the Mining Bill to be assented to by His Excellency without passing through this House. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is our belief that our President would not want to be ashamed. The best that the Speaker of the National Assembly could do now is to apologize to the whole nation and reverse all those Bills. He could even request if they could be taken back, because whatever he has done is a big concern to the nation. He has actually breached the Constitution. We need to remind him that even though maybe he remembers the days when he was a Member of the National Assembly, the Constitution changed and power was devolved. Just the way we are talking about the benefits of the functions which have been devolved to the counties, power was also devolved. That is why he cannot just do what he has been doing without consulting our Speaker when the Bills are taken to him. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, on behalf of my beloved people of Kajiado, I support this Motion.

Order, Senators! It is now almost 5.30 p.m. and it would be futile to call any of you to contribute to the debate. As all of you are aware, at 5.30 p.m. the Senator for West Pokot will move a Motion for Adjournment as was ordered by the Speaker earlier. We shall proceed with it to the end of the day. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, I move that the Senate do now adjourn to discuss a matter of national importance. Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, everybody in Kenya knows that two weeks ago, a decision was made to sent the Kenya Defence Forces (KDF) to go and quell a problem in Tiaty Constituency of Baringo County. We have heard, read and seen on television that we lost 22 officers two weeks ago---

Order, Senator! I am not trying to interrupt you. What I would suggest is that you now indicate your interest if you want to contribute to the current debate, the Motion of Adjournment.

Mr. Deputy Speaker, Sir, it is now two weeks since this incident took place between Kapedo and Lomelo where we lost 22 officers and a decision was made to send the KDF for an operation to flush out bandits that killed the officers. Many things have since happened that are not right. First, by law, the KDF can only be deployed within if an approval is sought from Parliament. However, to the best of my knowledge, nothing like that has happened. A number of officers have been sent to that sub-county and serious atrocities and anomalies have gone on there. Instead of flushing out the bandits, the said officers on Thursday, last week, at around midnight, disabled the only small and little communication network that existed. Therefore, the entire Tiaty Constituency which is 42 per cent of the entire Baringo County has no network connectivity, so communication is a challenge. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. Given the importance and interest that may be generated by this matter, would I be in order to request the Chair to limit our interventions and contributions to five minutes? I have been privy to the reading on your screen and I can see that it is already full. We are sitting up to half past six. We can either extend our sitting time to 7.00 p.m so that as many Members as possible can speak as adequately as they possibly can or we use five minutes per speaker.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): I will refer you to Standing Order No.33(4) which takes care of what you are asking. “No Senator speaking on a matter under this Standing Order shall speak for more than five minutes without the leave of the Senate, except that the Mover may speak for ten minutes.” You, as the Senate Minority Leader are tied to five minutes if you want to speak.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. When I heard the order that unless guns were returned within some hours, I knew the President would order the deployment of our defence forces. A decision had been made for our soldiers, the KDF, The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order! The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, from the outset, I sympathize with the people of Pokot for the suffering they might be going through. I also sympathize with them in suffering both in the hands of the bandits and the few soldiers who might be misbehaving during the operation. Let us get a few things clear; first, the KDF are not in that area illegally nor are they in that area unconstitutionally. This matter bothered me so much that I went to look for the Kenya Gazette. On 5th December, 2013, the Clerk of the National Assembly wrote to Joseph Kinyua giving the approval for the Kenya Defence forces (KDF) to be deployed in some areas. The letter reads as follows:- “I, Justin Bundi, Clerk of the National Assembly, hereby convey the following resolution of the National Assembly. That pursuant to Article 241 (3) of the Constitution, the National Assembly by resolution passed on Thursday 5th December, 2013, approved the deployment of the KDF for purposes of restoring peace and security, including averting further loss of lives and destruction of property in Marsabit, Samburu, West Pokot and Turkana counties of the Republic of Kenya”. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, this was in a gazette. If anybody wishes to see it, I have got it here.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Let me look at it and authenticate it first and then you table it.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I will do that.

A gazette notice was also given on 5th December, 2013 to the same effect. I am not saying that I approve, for any reason, the abuse of people in that region, but I think we should first clarify that there was, indeed, an approval by the National Assembly.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order! The way I see it, it has the legal requirements; an address, it is signed and it is acceptable.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, while many will question why it was

, nonetheless, there was no defined---

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. The distinguished Senator for Nyeri County who appears to be holding brief for external forces in this House, to mislead the House---

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order! Sen. Wetangula, be fair and withdraw that.

Sen. Wetangula): I withdraw and apologise to him. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, why he sprung that Gazette Notice, it is for him to tell. Is it in order for him to mislead this House? Authority by the National Assembly to deploy is for a specific event; it can never be ad infinitum . This is not a military State and The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): I rule you out of order because Sen. Kagwe has just started his contribution. Let us listen to him and hear what he has to say.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I agree with what Sen. Wetangula has said and that is why in the Gazette Notice of 4th November, another gazette notice was issued. It was pursuant to that. It is very easy for us to look at this issue and think---

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Do you have a copy of the same?

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I have a copy of the same.

Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Can I see it? Table those copies because hon. Senators would like to see them.

Very well! These are again authentic.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, the reason I think this is important is because whereas we are looking at the event where our soldiers were killed, I think the Senator for West Pokot County will admit that this is an area that had some element of instability for some time and when the Senator for Homa Bay says that the killing of 21 soldiers is not a sign of instability and unrest, I fail to understand what that would be.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. If, indeed, it is on the strength of this Gazette Notice that the soldiers are there, this would then be the most unconstitutional movement of our forces. Allow me to read it. It reads:- “Notice is given pursuant to Article 241 (3) (c) of the Constitution of Kenya---

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Maybe I will request that you read it. I will give you time to put your case and then you can come up with that. That is his document. You have time if you so want to contribute and challenge what he has tabled.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, my challenge is based on the KDF Act and the resolution of the National Assembly passed on 5th December, 2013. This thing is just cutting and pasting on a decision that was made last year. There has been no fresh resolution of the National Assembly. Is he, therefore, in order to defend the presence of forces in Kapedo, a move that is not backed by the National Assembly?

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, indeed, it would be you who would say whether I am in order. However, I feel and I am convinced that I am absolutely in order. When this order was given and when deployment was done, we are not the people who know whether a situation has got unrest or not.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. Is the Senator in order to suggest that we have to be specialists in security matters when the law actually The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order! I know that there are a lot of holes to be punctured in Sen. Kagwe’s debate, but just look at the documents so tabled, let Sen. Kagwe finish his five minutes, pick what you can from his presentation and wait for your time. Unless something is out of order, I will not entertain a discussion or a contribution in the name of a point of order. Hold Sen. Kagwe’s time.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. Is Sen. Kagwe in order to suggest that we are not experts in security matters and yet the Constitution expressly says under Article 238(2)(a) that national security is subject to the authority of this Constitution and Parliament and Senate is part of Parliament?

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Did Sen. Kagwe say that? I thought those were words of Sen. Kajwang.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. Is the distinguished Senator from Nyeri County in order to mislead this House by implying that an approval can be sought on the basis Article 241 in anticipation of an event that will happen in the future? I have never heard of such a law.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order! That is Sen. Kagwe’s opinion. Let him finish his debate and then you will have all the time to puncture his contribution although you have somehow tickled his mind.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I want to ask Sen. Kagwe to, again, read the counties for which the said authority was given. We are talking about Baringo County which is not on that list which he claims to have been done last December.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): I will sustain that. Could you read it out?

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I would like the Senator to tell us where Kapedo is. But the areas that I am talking about are Marsabit, Samburu, West Pokot and Turkana counties in the Republic of Kenya. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, as I said from the beginning, I think we should separate two things. We should separate the issue of the mistakes that the soldiers might have---

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. The distinguished Senator for Nyeri County cannot continue misleading this House. He has tabled a gazette notice. What he is holding and reading is different from what he gave you.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir.

Let me finish. I am on a point of order. This gazette notice reads:- The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Where is Baringo?

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I did not mention Baringo.

Kapedo is in Baringo.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order! Order! This House must have some decorum.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, there is an attempt by the Senator for Bungoma to intimidate me. The word “intimidation” is not in my vocabulary. I cannot be intimidated. If only my friend could sit quietly and listen, I would tell him what my views are.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Sen. Kagwe, you are protected and nobody will intimidate you. However, as the House requires, you must respond to points of order.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, in fact, I am responding to the same.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Very well. Continue.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, my understanding is that the Senator for West Pokot County is speaking largely about the constituencies and what is happening in that area, including West Pokot. I have said very clearly that I sympathise with what is happening to the people of both West Pokot and Turkana counties. But instead of us saying that our armed forces were trying to help the people of West Pokot and the general region and the operation should be limited to the area of Kapedo or even West Pokot, we should ask that it should be extended so that the guns in West Pokot and Turkana are collected and no community is left vulnerable to the other community. This is what this House should be asking.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order! I think that I have given you enough latitude.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, most of my time was taken by Sen. Wetangula.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order! Order! Nobody took your time. Sen. Ongoro.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. Having expended a considerable time, particularly within the interventions during Sen. Kagwe’s contribution, would it be in order now to revisit the leave of the House, so that we limit our contributions maybe to--- The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Can you read Standing Order No.33 (4)? Sen. Ongoro.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I hope that my time has been held.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): If what Sen. Wetangula is trying to advise is what was in your mind, that may be considered. But that extension can only be done before 5.30 p.m. Look at the Standing Orders on that.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I stand to give my contributions on this very weighty matter. Kenyans are being killed. I want all of us to make reference to Article 26 of this Constitution and remember that the Constitution is supreme. It states that every person has the right to life. I, therefore, take issue with the execution of human beings, whether they are Turkanas, Pokots or any other human beings, within our borders. Kenyans are being killed. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I take specific issue with the killing of law enforcement officers. This is not a good example. It is not a good sign. But I take extreme offence as a person - and believe that I represent the sentiments of many Kenyans – to the comments of an elected leader when interrogated on this matter, who stated that the killers of these enforcement officers thought that these people were Turkana. The big question is: Are Turkanas not human beings and Kenyans? Have Turkanas been---

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order, Sen. Ongoro! Was that an extraction from the HANSARD of the House or the media?

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, this is in the public domain. It was a statement made and I do not want to give names.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): I will, therefore, advise you maybe to---

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, in the interest of the House, could I proceed? Have Turkanas collectively been condemned to death; by whom and for what reason? Having said so, I also do not believe that one wrong can correct another wrong. Yes, the Pokots killed 21 law enforcement officers, but the law enforcement officers are now killing hundreds of Pokots. Is this just?

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): What is it, Professor? If I were you I would have listened because you are the Mover of the Motion.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I am listening, but do not want that point mentioned by the Senator to just pass. It looks like she has not even taken time to know the genesis of this---

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order! Order! Can you guard your language? The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, is she in order to almost imply that there are some people who say that others should be killed? She needs to clarify that, so that Kenyans can be clear on what that is all about.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Prof. Lonyangapuo, you cannot gag people’s opinion on issues, especially in a legislative Chamber like this one. Allow Sen. Ongoro to continue.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, it looks like the Senator is not even listening carefully to my contribution. I stated that one wrong cannot be corrected by another wrong. Twenty one law enforcement officers were killed by Pokots, but it looks like the same law enforcement officers are now killing hundreds of Pokots. This really is not justice. Article 29 (a) and (b) of the Constitution is very clear. I will not take time to read because of constraints of time. However, I do not believe that we are in a state of emergency. This article directs us to Article 58 which directs us further to Article 132. Although I do not support what happened to the 21 officers and strongly still want to repeat---

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Sen. Ongoro, you have one minute.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I was just concluding by stating that, on one hand, I do not support the killing of the 21 officers. On the other hand, I do not support the manner in which we are trying to correct what already happened. I believe that we can refer to the Constitution. We can make arrests and respect what is provided for in the Constitution under the Bill of Rights. When we arrest these people we should treat them humanely and in such a way that we are even able to get information from them, instead of intimidating and almost treating them like slaves within our midst. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I beg to support

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, again, I rise to propose that because of the great interest on this matter, we should limit our interventions to about two or three minutes, so that everybody can have an intervention.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): What are you saying? Is it two or three minutes? You must be explicit.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, with respect to time, I would suggest two minutes.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Two minutes is very short time. We will have three minutes, except for the Senate Minority Leader who will speak now.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, my sympathies and condolences first go to the 21 police officers and their families who were killed in cold blood. As Sen. Ongoro said, two wrongs do not make a right. There is a very worrying trend emerging in Kenya. As the 21 officers were killed, an army barracks was attacked in Mombasa, and an Administration Police (AP) camp was also attacked in Malindi and so on. This is a worrying problem because when the security forces are The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order, Sen. Wetangula! Unless you have forgotten your Constitution, he is still the head of the defence forces. So, be careful, do not go there.

He is the fourth President of Kenya. We have had three Presidents before him. At no time did I see, except only once or twice at a ceremony---. I never saw them wearing military fatigues, but our President today is regularly wearing military fatigues. This is a source of concern and it is my opinion and I am entitled to it.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Sen. Kittony, what is it?

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, sir. Is the honourable Senator for Bungoma aware that the fourth President of this country is a Commander-in- Chief of the Defence Forces and he is entitled to wear his uniform?

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. The principle in the Constitution is that the Commander-in-Chief is civilian. The military is under civilian control. That is why anywhere you go in the world, you do not find heads of States wearing military uniforms every other day. This is because you lose the constitutional principle that the military is under civilian control.

On a point of order, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I think we are really losing the plot. If the discussion is focusing on the dressing of the President, then there is something wrong. We saw the biggest democracy on earth, the United States of America (USA), George Bush wearing all sorts of fatigues. The frequency of how many times---

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order! Let me advice you on this: If you have to discuss the person of the President, then you must move a substantive Motion. Unfortunately, that is what our Standing Orders are all about. The point is clear as put by Sen. Orengo. I do not want to entertain anything more than what has been said.

On a point of information, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Who are you informing?

I want to add to the point of information that Sen. Orengo raised---

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order! That one is over.

It is an important point, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Okay, cough it out! The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, just to emphasize on the principle that Sen. Orengo raised, the Constitution is very clear under Article 239(5). It says:- “The national security organs are subordinate to civilian authority”

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Proceed, Sen. Wetangula.

I will be very quick. I have made the point, those who have heard have heard and they will know the truth. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, Article 241 gives the President the authority to deploy the military internally only with the approval of the National Assembly. This can only be done on a case by case basis. There is no way any Parliament in its right frame of mind can give a blanket approval that as and when the President wishes he directs the Minister for Defence to gazette a defective gazette order and then proceed to deploy the military. The military is deployed in Kapedo in Baringo County.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Sen. Wetangula will be heard. Look at the time.

This gazette notice says that they deploy in West Pokot and Turkana. Baringo is not mentioned. Therefore, the military is unconstitutionally deployed in Baringo. In addition to that, we want peace in this country. We want the Turkana, Pokot and all communities to enjoy peace in this country. What we are seeing in the news, the military is committing atrocities in Baringo. They are burning people’s houses. There is a woman weeping uncontrollably on television because she had taken a loan to improve her business, but the military had taken her money. The military is here to protect the territorial integrity of our country against foreign aggression and can only be used internally if there is unrest or instability. Who determines that? It is the National Assembly and not anybody else. Not even the President can determine that there is unrest or instability. He has to come to the House for them to determine and give him authority. The army is in Baringo without authority. The army is doing unlawful things in Baringo. As we condemn the killing of policemen, we equally and in the same breath, condemn the excesses that we are seeing in Baringo. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, let me finish by saying that the Government is elected and we have a social contract in law. We surrender our authority to the Government to give us protection. We pay taxes for them to give us protection. Has the Government abdicated? There is insecutiy everywhere. If it is not Mombasa, it is Moyale, Bungoma, Lamu, Kapedo, Turkana and Pokot. How do we have a Government that is just busy extinguishing fires when we have given them taxes, the police and everything? They are now running scared and going to send the money to go and do what they ought not to be doing. I support. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order! Let us listen to Sen. G.G. Kariuki in silence.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, all of us are equal in the eyes of the law. Therefore, we all need protection whether you are in the Opposition, from Turkana or Pokot. What I am failing to understand is: When we stand here, we talk of what is happening. When are we going to talk of what should be done? We just keep on saying; the President this or that and so and so did this or that. It is a repetition. What I suggest is that, if or when we are in a position to deal with the problem when it comes to this House, we should start seeking for a solution, but not just stand to condemn. Everyone can condemn, issue a statement in the way it is being issued and say something, but not many people have a solution. This is where we should be ready to face all the time. There is a problem in Pokot, Turkana, Samburu and in all these areas. What has anybody suggested? Is this House suggesting how to solve these problems? This is because the problem here is not just a problem of killing a few police officers. Even the citizens are dying every now and then, but why is it happening? We have to change the political dynamics of this area. It happened 50 years ago and will continue to happen unless this House comes up with a solution. Finding a solution is not a monopoly of the Government or this House. It is for all of us to put our heads together and find a way of resolving this serious problem which continues every now and then. In Laikipia, we have the same problem. People from Baringo, Samburu, and many other areas – all these has been happening as we sit here enjoying ourselves and making very big statements while people are dying. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, this matter has been politicised at home. It has turned to be political.

Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I have three minutes. Let me be the bad advocate in this issue and think like others are thinking; that the military is there legally and constitutionally. If that is so, Article 238 of the Constitution which deals with the principles of national security, provides as follows in sub article 2(b):- “national security shall be pursued in compliance with the law and with the utmost respect for the rule of law, democracy, human rights and fundamental freedoms;” (c) “in performing their functions and exercising their powers, national security organs shall respect the diverse culture of the communities within Kenyan.” When I was looking at the gazette notice by the Cabinet Secretary for Defence, I noticed an omission which explains why things are happening in Baringo as they are. This Gazette Notice refers to Sections 32(2) and 34(2) of the Kenya Defence Forces Act. The Cabinet Secretary, clearly and for very good cause, omitted Section 33(2) of the Kenya Defence Forces Act and this is very important. Even in an emergency the military has got something in the law to obey. It says:- The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I disagree with the Senator for Nyeri that, indeed, the Gazette Notice that purports to have given a resolution of Parliament is correct. Article 243(c) is not a blanket approval as we have heard from our Senate Minority Leader, Sen. Wetangula. This is because it can only be issued whenever a situation arises. You can never anticipate an event and, therefore, give a resolution. I even doubt whether this military is actually doing anything in Kapedo because we are told that three kilometres away as the military was there, in a place called Chepsitet Military Camp, a herdsman was killed by armed by bandits. When people went to call the military, nobody responded. I condemn the fact that innocent children and women continue to be killed in Kapedo. As I speak right now, women who are pregnant have actually miscarried because of these atrocious acts of the military. My heart goes to the woman whose shop was destroyed and yet she had just taken a loan. I urge lady Senators to raise money for that lady so that we restitute her to where she was. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, I conclude by condemning the Jubilee Government in its failure to curb insecurity and also check on proliferation of small arms and light weapons which keep on infiltrating this country. I support, Sen. Lonyangapuo.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Sen. Chiaba.

Asante, Bw. Spika wa Muda, kwa kunipatia nafasi hii. Hoja hii ni muhimu sana si tu kwa Wapokot peke yao lakini taifa nzima. Tunakumbuka wazi ya kwamba katika Kaunti ya Lamu, kulikuwa na uvamizi, wakora wakaja – hatujui kutoka wapi – wakavamia na kuua watu wasio na hatia. Lakini kilichotokea huko Pokot kilionekana kuwa watu wamevamia mamlaka ya Government .

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Ongea lugha ya Kiswahili au Kiingereza.

Bw. Spika wa Muda, wamewapiga na kuwaua maafisa wa Serikali ambao wako hapo kuwalinda na kudumisha amani. Hivi sasa Lamu kutokana na yale maafa yaliyotokea, imekuwa karibu miezi mitano. Kumewekwa marufuku ya kutotoka The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Do you know I can stop you on the rule of irrelevancy? Can you divert back to Pokot.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Bw. Spika wa Muda, tunazungumza mambo ya ukosefu wa usalama. Hivi sasa tunaiomba Serikali, wakati umefika ya kwamba marufuku hiyo iondolewe Lamu. Hii ni kwa sababu ukiwasukuma watu kuleta sheria ambazo hazifai, basi kama Lamu au pahali pengine popote, hata Pokot, itakuwa lazima watu wachukue hatua ya kujilinda kulingana na Haki za Kimsingi . Kwa hayo machache, ninaunga mkono Hoja hii.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Very well. Sen. Mositet.

Thank you, Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir. I rise to support Sen. (Prof.) Lonyangapuo and say, two wrongs cannot make a right. It was not a wise decision to take on the army against its own people. Mr. Temporary Speaker, Sir, with all due respect, this Senate should just urge the national Government to remove the army from Baringo. Let us also remember that we had the Samburus who were attacked in Baragoi where about 50 policemen were killed and 50 guns disappeared.

(Sen. (Dr.) Machage): Order! That is the end of today’s business. It is now to interrupt the business of the House. The Senate stands adjourned until tomorrow, Thursday, 13th November, 2014 at 2.30 p.m. The Senate rose at 6.30 p.m. The electronic version of the Senate Hansard Report is for information purposes only. A certified version of this Report can be obtained from the Hansard Editor, Senate.